Wall-mounted activator

[ima45dv8]

I'm thinking of a stage that has an activator mounted on a vertical surface. The activator would trigger a mover (probably a swinger or two).

Can I specify in the written stage briefing that it must not be activated by "artificial means" and that the shooter must use some part of their body to activate (no throwing mags or such)?

This might be used at a Level II match.

Place a shield in front of the switch that requires the shooter to step on a plate or push with some other means to slide the shield out of the way. The shooter then reaches in and activates the mover.

While that would be a elegant solution, see post #18.

If that sort of construction is not an option, can I simply state that the activator cannot be activated by artificial means and must be activated by some part of the competitors body?

[Poppa Bear]

I'm thinking of a stage that has an activator mounted on a vertical surface. The activator would trigger a mover (probably a swinger or two).

Can I specify in the written stage briefing that it must not be activated by "artificial means" and that the shooter must use some part of their body to activate (no throwing mags or such)?

This might be used at a Level II match.

Place a shield in front of the switch that requires the shooter to step on a plate or push with some other means to slide the shield out of the way. The shooter then reaches in and activates the mover.

While that would be a elegant solution, see post #18.

If that sort of construction is not an option, can I simply state that the activator cannot be activated by artificial means and must be activated by some part of the competitors body?

Specifying that the competitor MUST activate the target with their Weak Hand, Knee, Foot, Thigh.... is permissible as long as you do not then force the shooter to remain in that position to engage the target. It might be the best place, but you are not forcing them to remain there to engage the target ie "Shooter must then engage the target from that location"

[ima45dv8]

So the concept of "Compel, not Command" should only apply to actually shooting at targets, and not to activating them?

[Poppa Bear]

You are still compelling. The shooter can try to activate the swinger by any means they want. Disregarding the WSB will incur at least one procedural and possible several if you determine in advance that anyone who fails to activate in the prescribed manner has a significant advantage now as per 10.2.2.

[Flexmoney]

What you are asking about is a complying with a "Procedure specified in the written stage briefing". Covered.

IPSC is the only place I've really seen where the stance that "freestyle" violations come in to play. Some there won't even allow you to carry a briefcase (for example). If that is where IPSC ends up, then they don't even need a Procedure box in the WSB. I think we are better off with the freedom that USPSA provides in this area. Yet...I know we see problems here often, because the Procedure isn't written up very well (bullet proof).

[Singlestack]

I know what bugs me about this. I do not mind being compeled to do monkey motions by stage design. I really don't like being commanded to do them.

[mactiger]

The answer is yes, and Lee spelled out the rules. 10.2.2 and 10.2.2.1. While Singlestack makes a point with freestyle, that rule is for shooting the stage, not prop manipulation. It's been tried and tested many times over several years. The WSB has precedent when specifying how to carry or move a prop, what to activate something with, etc... (I know this from being bitten on the butt a few times by sloppy WSB's...)

Troy

(here I go getting off the Christmas card list again )

10.2.2 & 10.2.2.1 do not say anything about forcing a competitor to activate an activator with a defined object. They only spell out what the penalty is for not following the WSB. 1.1.5 says the WSB can't tell a competitor how to activate it.

How is prop manipulation not part of shooting the stage?

Sure they do. You can't say in the WSB, for instance, "you must kneel down and shoot through this barrel", if there is nothing around the barrel to compel you to do so--in other words, if you can see it, you can shoot it and in any position you choose. That's what 1.1.5 is all about, with the noted exceptions for Level 1 matches. You can state, however, "you must start seated in the chair, hands on the table"--that's what the stage procedure is all about. You can also say, "you must carry the briefcase in your weak hand the whole time, or earn procedural penalties". That's what 10.2.2 and 10.2.2.1 are about. Therefore, you can specify that the activator button must be activated with your hand (foot, nose, head, whatever), and not by throwing a magazine at it. I mean, if the WSB says, you must shoot from within the fault lines, you could choose to ignore that and call it freestyle, but you'd be racking up the penalties if you went outside the lines and fired a shot, right? How is that different from any other "procedure" specified in the WSB? The word "shooting" in 1.1.5 is important, because that's what you can't command, but must compel. Everything else, just about, can be commanded in a well written stage briefing.

And, don't worry John. You're still on my list.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

I know what bugs me about this. I do not mind being compeled to do monkey motions by stage design. I really don't like being commanded to do them.

What if you think of them as a Stage Procedure, instead of a monkey motion ?

[edit to add]

Heeeeey...didn't you and Mark design the classifier that commands us to count to 5 ?!!?

[Nik Habicht]

I know what bugs me about this. I do not mind being compeled to do monkey motions by stage design. I really don't like being commanded to do them.

You've got the option not to do them. There might be a consequence for non-compliance though....

And I'm on your page -- I prefer to see it addressed through better stage design....

[Lee King]

And I'm on your page -- I prefer to see it addressed through better stage design....

Here's the problem that has been plaguing me with this notion. I just hosted the 2011 SC Section Championship. We had one stage with a really cool moving target and a designer who spent a lot of time acquiring said target and designing a stage around it. Once the stage went on the ground however, it was apparent the design of the target limits how you "cover" it. We might could have made some changes but my mind was elsewhere and that detail got by me (this is partially my fault). Of course, most shooters opted to shoot the mover static rather than the way it was designed.

The stage crew was really pissed about it. All I could do was say the rules are the rules and we missed it.

After the match, the designer basically threw his hands up and told me not to count on him for future matches. He has been designing stages for years and is very creative. He puts his heart and soul into the coolest design he can come up with and it get's picked apart. This isn't the first time this has happened to him. And he isn't the only designer who told me they were done after this match.

With the 2nd designer the rules questions came up during the approval process. We caught them ahead of time and his stages went off without a hitch. But his frustration with trying to be creative and yet still achieve 1.1.5 got to him.

This perhaps deserves it's own thread. But are we shooting ourselves in the foot with 1.1.5? I don't know what the answer is because we all agree in general 1.1.5 is what makes our sport unique. But without designers, you have no stages. We aren't professionals. Most of us aren't lawyers. We don't have endless hours to build a stage, pick it apart, hire consultants, "dress rehearse" it etc. As such, things don't always go on the ground the way you intend. Both designers, independently, said the enjoyment they get from cool stage design was no longer worth the frustration of "trying to beat the range lawyers".

I'm not hosting SC State in 2012. But if I DID in 2013 I'm down 2 designers now. A little bit of leeway for reality would go a long way. I know it's a slippery slope. But there has to be a good balance.

[Flexmoney]

Lee,

We have that leeway for Level I matches (under specific circumstances). The idea there being that resources are/can be limited.

At Level II and up, the expectations on stage design increase.

The far end of the spectrum is the major matches in IPSC. I hope we can strike a balance, and keep that balance, in USPSA. I think we do. With guys like Troy reading the rule(s) to allow specifying Procedures...we still allow our competitors to carry briefcases (for example).

Stage designing can be tough sometimes. Especially right after somebody has driven a hole through our stage. For me, the trick is to keep my design focus on the project...without becoming attached to it too much.

Give your guys some time to shake it off. They sound like good people. They obviously care about the sport.

[Singlestack]

The far end of the spectrum is the major matches in IPSC. I hope we can strike a balance, and keep that balance, in USPSA. I think we do. With guys like Troy reading the rule(s) to allow specifying Procedures...we still allow Command our competitors to carry briefcases (for example).

I don't mind allow. That gives me options/choices. I hate Command.

[Flexmoney]

You are the only guy saying "command", John.

[Singlestack]

You are the only guy saying "command", John.

Really?

Since I might not be able to compel the shooter to run over to it and use some part of their body to activate it (by means of course construction), can I command that action through the WSB?

Everything else, just about, can be commanded in a well written stage briefing.

[mactiger]

You are the only guy saying "command", John.

Really?

Since I might not be able to compel the shooter to run over to it and use some part of their body to activate it (by means of course construction), can I command that action through the WSB?

Everything else, just about, can be commanded in a well written stage briefing.

Well, I did say it, but you could use "require" in it's place. Same thing. The WSB can require certain things, it just can't specify shooting positions, stances, locations,etc.

Troy

[Singlestack]

You are the only guy saying "command", John.

Really?

Since I might not be able to compel the shooter to run over to it and use some part of their body to activate it (by means of course construction), can I command that action through the WSB?

Everything else, just about, can be commanded in a well written stage briefing.

Well, I did say it, but you could use "require" in it's place. Same thing. The WSB can require certain things, it just can't specify shooting positions, stances, locations,etc.

Troy

Trust me. I get it. I was playing Devils advocate a bit in hopes of changing "things". I believe in stage design to compel the shooter what you want done as a stage designer, not clever WSB's.

[spanky]

Cut a hole in your wall and run some pipe down towards a stomp box. "require" the shooter to deposit something into the hole (like a weighted ball) to activate the stomp box. You could also possibly mount the stomp box (or a similar design) to the wall and put a ported wall between the shooter and it, that way the shooter has to stick their arm through the first wall to hit the activator on the second wall. Of course there is always ports that you must manually open that can activate a mover.

Edited May 18, 2011 by spanky