sac Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 At a club match what do you do if a person forgets to fill out their division ? Score them in open ? I can not find it in the rule book, all that I get from the people at my club, is I was at the nationals once and the person was scored as open. Thanks Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adively Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) The closest I can find is 6.2.5, but that is pre-commencement of a match. 6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most cosely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division isavailable, the competitor will shoot the match for no score. ETA: spelling. Edited May 13, 2011 by adively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I dunno how about a "Hey Cletus, what division you shooting ?" tends to work most of the time. If the error isnt noticed till everyone is gone the RM's has to decide IAW 6.2.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 The real problem is during a match where 6.2.5 works fine when I can look at the equipment, the problem is after the match when you are crunching scores. My answer is always open/minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 If the RM/ROs can't recall what equipment the shooter was using, I'd say he/she shoots for no score per 6.2.5. It's applicable since the shooter didn't declare a Division at sign-in, which is before the match begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 If you can remember what he was shooting, put him in what you think closest fits. If not, no score. I can't find in rules where he would get bumped to open in this case. Just what I can put together from the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Seriously? Send the dude an email and ask. If he doesn't know, you know he was shooting production! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centermass Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 If the shooter is a current USPSA member I'll lookup what current class he's been competing. I a repeat shooter I go with what he shot last match. Otherwise usually someone will know or shooter will respond via our club forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 If a shooter fails to provide his Division or his Power Factor, he defaults to Open and Minor. We post the scores and the shooter has a couple days to get in touch via Email to make the correction. If the shooter fails to notify us in the review period, the scores will go in as posted. If it is found that the StatsDude is in error, then a correction will of course be made. There are ample opportunities to provide Division and Power Factor. Registration opens a week prior to the match and the form we use requires all the pertinent information. Then the shooter fills out a written registration form and Waiver, again providing an opportunity to make his choices known and again during the match IF he notes that he has twice been remiss or in error he can not the change on the squad sheet. Failing these three chances, the shooter has one final opportunity to notify Stats during the generally 3 day posting period. After this, his score stands. As for putting a shooter in the division he shot last, suppose last match he shot Open and this match he shoots SS or Production? Would it be fair to place his scores from Open into SS or Production and have him take a prize perhaps a match win form the rightful recipient? As for guessing, well see the previous paragraph. Just my $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 (edited) What rule says he defaults to open? All I find is no score. Am I missing it in the book? Have looked twice. Why does 6.2.5 not apply, and he is sent to open? Edited May 14, 2011 by whitedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 If the RM/MD can not verify for sure what division the competitor was shooting, then it is no-score. Folks really need to stop making up their own rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Guys, SERIOUSLY?? At a club level match????? Just ask the shooter. He's declaring it anyhow at registration and unless you're checking with a chrono and have ROs that are counting rounds, its all honor system anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Guys, SERIOUSLY?? At a club level match????? Just ask the shooter. He's declaring it anyhow at registration and unless you're checking with a chrono and have ROs that are counting rounds, its all honor system anyhow. Yes! If the rulebook means nothing, then drop the USPSA affiliation and membership and don't pay for that or the activity fees and don't send anyone to nationals. The rules establish the playing field and following the rules, in all regards, is one of the things that sets (or used to) USPSA apart. Start down the slippery slope and eventually, USPSA becomes worthless. If we really think the the rulebook (or a specific rule) is all bad, then we should petition our AD for rule(s) to be changed, but don't make stuff up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Local match just ask them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I ask anyone who mnight have seen him if they remember what he is shoting. My shooter information sheet asks for a email address. Flipping them into open is a penalty for declaring one divison and having equipment for another. Does not fit this situation. This is a best a over sight and at worst an attitude. When I post the scores they have time to respond with a correction. Normally they do. Jim G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroed Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 at local club, email or call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Hey I didn't say don't make an attempt to find out, but if you can't find out in a reasonable time then 94 other shooters are going to be irritated because the scores are not out. So Open Minor works. At every shooters meeting repeat the same old tired talk. Make sure you put your division, power, factor, class, and check your scores, add up the total hits for A,B etc. Yes do it every time because scoring a match can be quick and easy or it can be pure hell. If the score poster makes an error it should be corrected, but if the score sheet had errors on it no, its a volunteer sport not a career. Come back next time check your score sheet and win the match. Again it is a volunteer sport, if you didn't like how the scoring was done well volunteer to do the scores! We are going to palm scoring at club matches, scores will be out by the time you tear down the stages! Most times we have scores out within 4 hours of the end of the match. Those clubs that have a Saturday match and post scores on Tuesday, well just second class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Guys, SERIOUSLY?? At a club level match????? Just ask the shooter. He's declaring it anyhow at registration and unless you're checking with a chrono and have ROs that are counting rounds, its all honor system anyhow. Yes! If the rulebook means nothing, then drop the USPSA affiliation and membership and don't pay for that or the activity fees and don't send anyone to nationals. The rules establish the playing field and following the rules, in all regards, is one of the things that sets (or used to) USPSA apart. Start down the slippery slope and eventually, USPSA becomes worthless. If we really think the the rulebook (or a specific rule) is all bad, then we should petition our AD for rule(s) to be changed, but don't make stuff up! You're missing the point entirely. Every other shooter at the match had to declare a division and power factor... this guy just forgot to write it down. Did you chrono everyone, check mags, and make sure that all guns meet spec? Of course not... its a local match. This isn't a rules issue at all... at worst its a clerical problem which we the match staff come across multiple times in the course of a monthly. You fix the problem and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Guys, SERIOUSLY?? At a club level match????? Just ask the shooter. He's declaring it anyhow at registration and unless you're checking with a chrono and have ROs that are counting rounds, its all honor system anyhow. Yes! If the rulebook means nothing, then drop the USPSA affiliation and membership and don't pay for that or the activity fees and don't send anyone to nationals. The rules establish the playing field and following the rules, in all regards, is one of the things that sets (or used to) USPSA apart. Start down the slippery slope and eventually, USPSA becomes worthless. If we really think the the rulebook (or a specific rule) is all bad, then we should petition our AD for rule(s) to be changed, but don't make stuff up! You're missing the point entirely. Every other shooter at the match had to declare a division and power factor... this guy just forgot to write it down. Did you chrono everyone, check mags, and make sure that all guns meet spec? Of course not... its a local match. This isn't a rules issue at all... at worst its a clerical problem which we the match staff come across multiple times in the course of a monthly. You fix the problem and move on. For a local match, I'm with Seth. In my experience, the persons most often found without division/power factor were the folks building the match. Often they would send one person to stats to fill out sheets for all of them for squadding, shooters would then try to remember to finish filling out the scoresheet during the match. As a supportive MD, you learn to send a quick e-mail to the shooter/squad and solicit an answer -- at least prior to writing prize checks, and submitting to USPSA..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 If the RM/MD can not verify for sure what division the competitor was shooting, then it is no-score. Folks really need to stop making up their own rules! I'm not making my own rules. They key words in the rule are " in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment." So seeing how no one is going to shoot a gun that fits in no division without anyone noticing, I'm using my opinion to decided his gun best identified as Open/Minor. How am I breaking the rules? Look at it in a different light, Open/minor is the LEAST advantageous combination for the shooter, in the best case scenario thats what he actually shot, in every other case he pays the price for not bothering to fill in the score sheet. He is not screwing anyone else, because the MOST he can be doing is competing in Open, with an open gun shooting minor so his score is fair, or he is competition with a gun which is LESS competitive in Open in which case no one else in Open is getting screwed either. The shooter him/herself is at worst getting screwed out shooting in the correct division, but not getting screwed out of paying a match fee and not even seeing his time and hits later. How is this wrong, by rules, or fairness, or karma, or whatever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 (edited) If the RM/MD can not verify for sure what division the competitor was shooting, then it is no-score. Folks really need to stop making up their own rules! Agree! Well, kind of....it does say that if there is no suitable division...In that case, open is a suitable division for any weapon, so IMO, they should get scored as open minor, but it really could go either way... Edited May 14, 2011 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I'm not making my own rules. They key words in the rule are " in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment." So seeing how no one is going to shoot a gun that fits in no division without anyone noticing, I'm using my opinion to decided his gun best identified as Open/Minor. How am I breaking the rules? Because you don't have any idea what the competitor is shooting. The word "identifies" surely means you know, not your guess. The rule: 6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most cosely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score. I agree the MD/RM should try to find out the correct division... If the RM/MD can not verify for sure what division the competitor was shooting, then it is no-score. But if he/she can not, the rule is specific. If you put them in Open/Minor, you are breaking the rules as well. Sure, at a local match, you can probably find out by checking or asking a squad mate. That would be "identification." The vast majority of the time that will work. If the "subject" shooter is unknown, no contact, etc. and no-one can tell the RM/MD what the person was shooting, then again, no score. Maybe the run is the word "identifies". Guess the moral is to make sure Stats gets the divisions entered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 (edited) It is wrong because it does not follow the rule which applies.......if we are going to bend this rule which others will follow. Let me know so I can pick which one's I want to "bend" also. We can print another book and call it a suggestion book rather than a rule book. It sucks, but them's the rules. I don't agree with them all, however we all play the game by them. Edited May 14, 2011 by whitedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I'm not making my own rules. They key words in the rule are " in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment." So seeing how no one is going to shoot a gun that fits in no division without anyone noticing, I'm using my opinion to decided his gun best identified as Open/Minor. How am I breaking the rules? Because you don't have any idea what the competitor is shooting. The word "identifies" surely means you know, not your guess. The rule: 6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most cosely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score. I agree the MD/RM should try to find out the correct division... If the RM/MD can not verify for sure what division the competitor was shooting, then it is no-score. But if he/she can not, the rule is specific. If you put them in Open/Minor, you are breaking the rules as well. Sure, at a local match, you can probably find out by checking or asking a squad mate. That would be "identification." The vast majority of the time that will work. If the "subject" shooter is unknown, no contact, etc. and no-one can tell the RM/MD what the person was shooting, then again, no score. Maybe the run is the word "identifies". Guess the moral is to make sure Stats gets the divisions entered. I don't think the no score rule applies here. The no score rule applies when there is no divison which matches the competitors equipment, it has nothing to do with failing to declare a divison. It simply means there is no home for him, but come and shoot regardless. If all other attempts fail, then dropping them into open/ minor is what I do to catch their attention. Is it a good answer, probably not, but it is a whole lot better than completely blowing them out of the match by declaring a no score. Any gun in any configuration fits into open minor., Jim G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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