Suggestions for a 20” barrel for limited/irons

[Nuke8401]

I am looking for suggestions for a barrel to replace my current 16” mid length gas barrel. I have an armalite upper which I installed a low profile gas block, rifle length free float tube, and mounted a clamp on Armalite front sight right behind the comp. I have a 20 ¾” sight radius but would like to go to a 20” barrel with the same basic set-up.

My concerns:

1. Barrel diameter just behind comp need to be close to .750 to allow installation of clamp on front sight.

2. Weight; stainless or not?

3. Contour for weight? Fluted?

4. Money, would like to buy a barrel that needs no gunsmithing /fitting.

5. Cheaper is better for accuracy of 2 MOA or better.

6. Can I just replace the barrel and use the same bolt? Should I buy a barrel with a fitted bolt?

7. 556, 223, wylde chamber?

7. I am more concerned on something that works 100% than having the “best”.

8. I am considering a "AR-stoner SDM-R" form midway, I searched the forum for SDM and found very few hits? Seems like this profile would be a good choice for 3-gun.

Thanks in advance,

David E.

[DyNo!]

I'd say that a government profile 20" would do.

It's accurate enough out of the box and if it holds 2MOA, that's close to the most you'd get out of your sights.

[carbon9]

The Stoner looks like it will be pretty heavy. I have an 18" Lothar Walther with pretty close to the same profile but with fluting on the front section as well and I don't think I would want the extra 2" of weight. The price looks right but by the time you decide you want to pay somebody to shave off the extra weight, along with shipping costs and downtime you may as well just add a $100 dollars to your budget which give you far greater and possibly better options. I believe LWs come with a bolt as well. Some other food for thought.... I have 3 barrels with Wylde chambers in a 1-8 twist yet I seem to usually just shoot 55gr bullets at every match. I think I will be getting my next 20" iron sight barrel in an "old fashioned" 1-9 twist to see what the difference is. Shooting no more then a 52gr-55gr bullet using iron sights is starting to intrigue me and make more sense.

[maddox]

I have a Black Hole Weaponry 20" standard profile barrel on my rifle now. I really like it. I cannot say what MOA it will shoot because I have not tested it yet but I do know that it will hit 10" targets at 400 yards.

[latewatch]

I ran this DPMS barrel for several years and had very good luck with it, and the price is right.

DPMS Barrel

[Nuke8401]

Thanks all for the replies, DyNo, I had not considered the simplest option, 20" government profile.

Fluting near the muzzle might not work with the clamp on FS, and running irons I really want/need a 20" barrel which is why weight is a concern. The Black Hole Weaponry and DPMS barrels look heavy?

It seems many shooters are going to 20" barrels for the velocity.

Drifting my own thread, I am moving toward using only fast 55gr bullets and a 20" barrel to get the flattest trajectory possible and still hit hard enough for steel.

DyNo, did I see on another thread you are using the Prismatic? I see Kelly N. used one at the Blue Ridge 3-gun. How is it at distance? 2-4 MOA steel at say 400 yds?

Thanks,

David E.

[Nuke8401]

I just read the BRM3G thread, looks like distance is not only possible with the prismatic but may be the best choice for a 1x optic. The top 2 shooters in Limited were using the prismatic.

David E.

[want2race]

I bought a 20" JP barrel then had it turned down to .750 from the gas block forward. Under the hand guard it was a light profile already.

The best set up for me was a globe front sight mount on a barrel band (Brownells). The Globe sight is a 30mm tube with a very thin post front sight inside. Long range, use post. Close up, use the tube for a circle in circle sight picture. For under 50 yards, see brown in tube..pull twice. Very very easy to use and it's fast. I've shot a 2" group at 200 yards with it (1 moa 5 shot group). Rear sight in pic is a DMPS style standard A2 sight. With the standard elevation drum I have 25y/300y, 50y/200y, and the 4,5, and 600 yard settings. Because of the adjustable height front barrel band I could set the 25/300 zero 9 clicks up on the rear sight. The 50/200y zero is bottomed out. Worked out well for me. Of course now the set up is sitting on a shelf because I bought a Vortex for the Pro-Am this year.

I had the barrel done up because it was cheaper than buying the Noveske Iron sight barrel. Their barrel is .750 at the muzzle specifically for long sight radius. I have a friend with a lathe (who also made my handguard). If you don't the Noveske would be a great option. Not cheap though. I could not find any other barrels with a .750 diameter. They all reduce down to .730. Then again, I think the barrel band I use is available in .730 (which I found out after I bought the barrel).

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7919/Product/COMPETITION_BARREL_BAND

Edited to add: My barrel is a 1/8. I can shoot 52gr through 77gr.

Edited May 5, 2011 by want2race

[Bryan 45]

I just read the BRM3G thread, looks like distance is not only possible with the prismatic but may be the best choice for a 1x optic. The top 2 shooters in Limited were using the prismatic.

David E.

Four of the top 5 in Tac 1x were using the Prismatic.

Cramblit had to screw up the stats by using an Eotech.

[DanielW]

Is a 1:12 profile considered optimal for 55gr bullets?

I've been considering an irons rifle as well, and I was wondering about one of these:

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/productdetail.aspx?id=GM-M15

or one of these maybe:

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/productdetail.aspx?id=GM-M16

Edited May 5, 2011 by DanielW

[DyNo!]

I just read the BRM3G thread, looks like distance is not only possible with the prismatic but may be the best choice for a 1x optic. The top 2 shooters in Limited were using the prismatic.

David E.

Four of the top 5 in Tac 1x were using the Prismatic.

Cramblit had to screw up the stats by using an Eotech.

And beating me!

I don't know what makes that armband so competitive but man he's fast.

Sorry I didn't get the chance to talk with you more at BR Bryan, I'll catch up with you at the next match we shoot.

I just read the BRM3G thread, looks like distance is not only possible with the prismatic but may be the best choice for a 1x optic. The top 2 shooters in Limited were using the prismatic.

David E.

Absolutely. I actually sent mine off on Monday to have a target knob installed so I don't have to Kentucky targets anymore. I'm pretty confident that being able to dial for distance will get hits faster on distant steel - I had to fire about 10 rounds to hit the 550 yard target.

DyNo, did I see on another thread you are using the Prismatic? I see Kelly N. used one at the Blue Ridge 3-gun. How is it at distance? 2-4 MOA steel at say 400 yds?

Thanks,

David E.

Hell, after hearing about Mr. Casanova's run, I'm convinced that if the target is visible - a 1X Prismatic can engage targets as fast as a variable scope - perhaps faster with a good field of view.

In my opinion, it works like a variable stuck on 1 power. It has all of the benefits of a magnified optic and all of the downsides as well. It is not parallax free so your head must be in the same position as when you zeroed it. It also has good eye relief but, it is still there and you can't get too sloppy with your cheek weld like you can with a dot.

If the targets are 4MOA, it's cake. Blue Ridge was slightly more challenging but I was able to hit every piece of steel except for one tricky downhill flasher at about 400 which a large number of phenomenal 4X shooters could not hit either - so I don't feel too bad.

The best set up for me was a globe front sight mount on a barrel band (Brownells).

I'm actually building a second limited upper that is going to be 20" with a globe sight for matches that don't allow 1X and as a secondary backup. I know Mr. Neal used to use one before the prismatic and I don't think it would be a bad tool to have access to.

With all this being said, shooting irons doesn't seem to slow Mr. Miller down too much and I wouldn't feel like I was at a disadvantage if were running one against a prismatic.

If you choose to shoot a 1:8 barrel, try 75 grain bullets over 23.5 grains of Varget - I've been able to get it to sub MOA with that optic @ 2525fps.

Edited May 5, 2011 by DyNo!

[Dan Sierpina]

Hell, after hearing about Mr. Casanova's run, I'm convinced that if the target is visible - a 1X Prismatic can engage targets as fast as a variable scope - perhaps faster with a good field of view.

I shot with James, he zeros at 250 yards and I think he used 55 Ballistic Tips on the longer stages, and 52 Sierras on the shorter ones. JJ Johnson hit the 550 yard target on his first shot, using normal iron sights.

[Nuke8401]

DyNo,

I thought maybe you could make use of the circle, dot, crosshairs / gaps between them for hold overs with the prismatic?

Is there any MOA data on the details of the prismatic?

I'm very tempted at this point to go with the prismatic, but there is nothing like beating many/most optics guys.

David E.

[DyNo!]

DyNo,

I thought maybe you could make use of the circle, dot, crosshairs / gaps between them for hold overs with the prismatic?

Is there any MOA data on the details of the prismatic?

I'm very tempted at this point to go with the prismatic, but there is nothing like beating many/most optics guys.

David E.

I use the circle dot reticule and I've seen KellyN post that he does too - it is likely that the other two people did as well since the cross hair reticule is pretty thick.

As far as holdovers go - with a 200 yard zero, I hold low on 50-150, dead on at 0-50 & 150-200, and high at 200-320 (Either the top of the plate or the bottom of the flasher depending on target size and distance). From 320-500, I start where I think it will hit and walk the rounds vertically up onto the target (And when it comes back with a knob, that's the range I'll start clicking it to avoid dumping ammo).

I'm sure Leupold would give you the reticule dimensions but, it is mighty lonely between the bottom of the dot and the top of the ring.

If this thing had a drop reticule, it would be sick!

[Casman]

Hey Guys, Casanova here.

So here is a little bit of info that may be helpful as far as the Prismatic is concerned. I started out with the Circle Plex reticle. I was told by Leupold that the dot was 6.3 MOA diameter and that the lines were 3.1 MOA thick. I was able to verify this pretty closely at the range. The gap between the outside of the dot and the start of the cross lines appeared to be roughly equal to the diameter of the dot. I was never able to get any info on that from Leupold. I really don't think they ever envisioned anyone using that reticle for long range holds. Inside 200 yards that reticle kicked butt. I zeroed for 200 which gave me the bottom of the dot as my 300 hold. In theory that was good but in practice it was really tough because so much of the target was obscured.

I talked to Kelly a bit and he recommended the DCD (Double Circle Dot) reticle instead as the dot was a lot finer. He was right on with the recommendation too. Leupold says that the dot on this one is 3 MOA. I was able to verify that as well at the range pretty closely too, the numbers I was given for the two rings however seems a bit off and I have not had a chance to try to measure them just yet.

I played around with a 300 zero for a bit, but coming from scoped shooting, 200 just made more sense for me so that is what I have been running. For me, not having to think about holding low on targets inside 200 made more sense, since I have to think about holds at longer range anyway. I actually shoot 52gr Sierras at anything inside 200 and 69gr Sierras outside 200. Running the 69s at just under 2800 fps means that at 300 I hold top of plate, at 400 I have one dot diameter gap to top of plate and so on. I am lucky enough to have a range relatively close by where I can verify my holds and get a visual idea of what I am looking for, which helps.

I saw some comments earlier about some of the pros and cons to the Prismatic. From my experience, and I am not any kind of authority here just my observations, those earlier comments were pretty much right on. Parallax is definitely something that has to be watched. The Prismatic is still a piece of glass and the image will still shift if you don't have your head in the same place every time. That said, it is no different than any other scope in that respect so forewarned is forearmed. I have not spent a lot of time shooting reflex type red dots so I really can't comment on whether parallax is better or worse with the Prismatic, but I have been told that it is still an issue with those as well. I have found the eye relief to be extremely forgiving and have never had an issue with it, but I have also been shooting Leupold scopes for a while and I'm familiar with them. DyNo!, you are so right. If we could get some kind of drop reticle in it, the Prismatic would be just about perfect. I vote for a nice fine MIL ladder.

In the end I think that the Prismatic is one heck of nice optic and I plan to keep using it. If a better reticle becomes available, then I expect my wallet will get another round of abuse. I hope this is at least a little bit helpful.

[Nuke8401]

Casanova,

Thanks for all the info, I was close to buying the circle plex, glad you posted here. I did not see the DCD on the Leopold site as an option? Is it by request? It would seem Leopold custom shop would be able to put whatever reticle the customer wants on the prismatic. Maybe they will catch on soon.

Thanks Again,

David E

[Casman]

Hey David,

The Leupold web page is a little bit strange when you pull up the Prismatic. It seems to come up on the Tactical model first, which does not offer the DCD, if you roll over the hunting model listing on the left or the NWTF model you will get the DCD. I have had several begging, pleading and crying sessions with the custom shop about other reticles and, at this time anyway, the Prismtic is one of the scopes they are not doing that with. If you want custom drop dials done, they are happy to do that. I would be very interested to hear from DyNo! about how they work. I have been contemplating doing the same.

As for where to get the Prismatic, talking to Leupold it sounds like they have a bit of a wait; Optics planet may be a better choice if you want to get it sooner, if they still have them in stock. They have been selling like hotcakes.

Good luck and have fun. I think you will like the Prismatic, if you do choose to go that route.

James

[sono]

After running irons at Blue Ridge and placing 6th behind all the guys with glass its time for a change. I called the custom shop at leupold and there is no custom reticle so we've got what we've got for now.

I can tell you that after looking through Dyno's it is the way to go. Now just gotta get one and mount it up. One sight plane is easier than two I believe. Congrats to all the higher finishes that made me spend some money. Haha

Edited May 6, 2011 by sono

[want2race]

After running irons at Blue Ridge and placing 6th behind all the guys with glass its time for a change. I called the custom shop at leupold and there is no custom reticle so we've got what we've got for now.

I can tell you that after looking through Dyno's it is the way to go. Now just gotta get one and mount it up. One sight plane is easier than two I believe. Congrats to all the higher finishes that made me spend some money. Haha

Sounds to me like there is no more Iron sight division.

[MarkCO]

Sounds to me like there is no more Iron sight division.

You are probably right. You can't turn technology loose and expect nothing to happen. In the end, it does make Limited a more appealing and less costly proposition, especially for the aging eyes.

So for the OP, just bolt on a Prismatic and choose whatever barrel you like. The SDR-M Stoner barrel from Midway does look appealing, but it is mid-length gas. If you run an 18" barrel, you might as well get the benefits of rifle length gas.

Edited May 6, 2011 by MarkCO

[P.E. Kelley]

Less costly? Than low budget Irons... I'll give you that but only by a couple hundred.

Burris TAC 30 is the same price (add in a mount) as the Prismatic.

We just have a new Optics division where Irons "can be" competitive.

Now if we can just get Heavy Metal to adopt this thinking and move to ONE Heavy division.

Patrick

[DyNo!]

If you want custom drop dials done, they are happy to do that. I would be very interested to hear from DyNo! about how they work. I have been contemplating doing the same.

I'll definitely create a post when they ship it back. Until then, this is for all the people who are on the fence.

It didn't make for good video so it didn't make the cut for anything other than my personal page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGToBRwbsyc

Casman was about 15%/12 seconds faster.

Edited May 7, 2011 by DyNo!

[Casman]

Nice vid! If that doesn't convince any fince sitters I don't know what will.

I am really looking forward to hearing how you like your dials.

[Casman]

Woops! That would be, fence sitters. I have no idea what a fince is.

[Jadeslade]

If you want custom drop dials done, they are happy to do that. I would be very interested to hear from DyNo! about how they work. I have been contemplating doing the same.

I'll definitely create a post when they ship it back. Until then, this is for all the people who are on the fence.

It didn't make for good video so it didn't make the cut for anything other than my personal page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGToBRwbsyc

Casman was about 15%/12 seconds faster.

Nice video. Thanks. Been using a 6.5moa Trijicon reflex zeroed at 300 yds. Some days it ridiculously easy to march down to 500 yds with the rifle on the targets, some days it's not. More trigger time! Holdover is faster 90 % of the time.