Single Stack + table starts

[SNSCaster2]

Please dont grill me on this one, I've searched and read enough posts about weird rules to make me have nightmares about numbers with decimal points in them!

Here is my question. During a table/briefcase start with all ammo on table, is the shooter allowed to grab mags and put them in a shirt breast pocket? I was recently told by a seasoned M class shooter that that's what he'd do, but it seemed to me that the shirt pocket would be just like using a front pants pocket. Also, upon make ready command, I've been taking my barney mag out of back pocket(and putting it back in there) and pulling a full mag out of my front pocket to use to start the stage.. I'm assuming I'm good as long as it's not in the front pocket after the start signal, correct? Nats are coming soon, and I really dont want to make a bonehead mistake! Thanks for the input in advance!

[chbrow10]

What division are we talking about?

[Corey]

I would not. Your shirt pocket is in front of your hip bone.

Just practice picking them up 2 at a time and putting them on your belt. One hand or two, its your choice. I ran into a major problem with this at a match early last year and now it something that I practice. I've done much better in the recent times I've seen it at a match. Putting a little chamfer/funnel on your mag pouches can help you a bit too.

[chbrow10]

Duh, I missed the division in the title. I agree with Corey.

[ChuckS]

I've been taking my barney mag out of back pocket(and putting it back in there) and pulling a full mag out of my front pocket to use to start the stage.. I'm assuming I'm good as long as it's not in the front pocket after the start signal, correct?

You better go read this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=126988

[steel1212]

Please dont grill me on this one, I've searched and read enough posts about weird rules to make me have nightmares about numbers with decimal points in them!

Here is my question. During a table/briefcase start with all ammo on table, is the shooter allowed to grab mags and put them in a shirt breast pocket? I was recently told by a seasoned M class shooter that that's what he'd do, but it seemed to me that the shirt pocket would be just like using a front pants pocket. Also, upon make ready command, I've been taking my barney mag out of back pocket(and putting it back in there) and pulling a full mag out of my front pocket to use to start the stage.. I'm assuming I'm good as long as it's not in the front pocket after the start signal, correct? Nats are coming soon, and I really dont want to make a bonehead mistake! Thanks for the input in advance!

Table starts with mags on the table is a fact of the game. Some will moan and complain about it. Others will practice it and make it a tool in their box to use at a match. Which do you want to be?

After the buzzer the competitors equipment must follow the division rules. You can't grab a mag and run with it, from what I've been told, you also can't stow it anywhere you like on your body. Get mag pouches you can stow the mags into and practice that.

[sperman]

You can't grab a mag and run with it, from what I've been told...

Are you saying you can't have a magazine in your hand while shooting the course of fire?

[open17]

You can't grab a mag and run with it, from what I've been told...

Are you saying you can't have a magazine in your hand while shooting the course of fire?

Or hold it in your teeth? (yes, I've seen it done)??

For that matter, what's the rule that even ALLOWS a ammo on the table start? And if it's the WSB, can

it say "ammo may be carried anywhere after start signal" and negate all the behind the hipbone rules?

[want2race]

I think it was mentioned in the other thread but I was told by an Area director that NO you may not shoot a course of fire with a mag in your hand OR in your teeth. When you go to reload that mag, it came from in front of the hip bone. That info was relayed to him, then to us. He didn't make the call either.

I think the hip bone has gotten it's 15 minutes of fame already. The arguement that the course of fire starts at "make ready" is the issue. If we can get clearification that the course of fire, i.e. when your gear must meet the rule book, starts at the buzzer then a lot of these discussions will be resolved.

There is nothing gained or lost by having a barney mag (if unused during the course of fire) or your start mag in your front pocket while NOT shooting the course of fire. That means that if, while eating lunch, you run back to your car to grab one more mag and you slip it into your front pocket for the walk back the shooting area, you're open division? The answer is yes and I think it's silly.

[mhs]

For that matter, what's the rule that even ALLOWS a ammo on the table start? And if it's the WSB, can it say "ammo may be carried anywhere after start signal" and negate all the behind the hipbone rules?

See 5.2.4 and 3.2.5

[sperman]

I've never heard anyone say that you can't have a mag in your hand while shooting a course of fire. That seems like a pretty strict interpretation of 5.2.4. What if a competitor engages a couple of targets strong hand only while reaching for the mag to start his reload? Are you going to bump him to open?

If you really wan't to get stupid with 5.2.4, it doesn't allow you to have a mag in the gun, only in approved retention devices.

[Corey]

If you really wan't to get stupid with 5.2.4, it doesn't allow you to have a mag in the gun, only in approved retention devices.

It says SPARE magazines/reloading devices have to be stored in retention devices. Spare meaning extras that are not the one you are using.

[Singlestack]

If you really wan't to get stupid with 5.2.4, it doesn't allow you to have a mag in the gun, only in approved retention devices.

It says SPARE magazines/reloading devices have to be stored in retention devices. Spare meaning extras that are not the one you are using.

Stored means the one NOT in your hand.

[Gary Stevens]

If you really wan't to get stupid with 5.2.4, it doesn't allow you to have a mag in the gun, only in approved retention devices.

It says SPARE magazines/reloading devices have to be stored in retention devices. Spare meaning extras that are not the one you are using.

Stored means the one NOT in your hand.

A little more clarity for those of us who are public school educated.

[want2race]

I've never heard anyone say that you can't have a mag in your hand while shooting a course of fire. That seems like a pretty strict interpretation of 5.2.4. What if a competitor engages a couple of targets strong hand only while reaching for the mag to start his reload? Are you going to bump him to open?

Scenario: Shooter engages a target, initiates reload by grabbing mag from pouch, decides that he/she didn't like one of the shots on the last target, engages target with one more round stong hand only while holding the soon to be reloaded mag. Mag came from mag pouch, but is now in weak hand during last shot. Is that OK? I've seen that happen before.

This is a different scenario than picking up magazines from the table and holding them during the course of fire.

[mhs]

For that matter, what's the rule that even ALLOWS a ammo on the table start? And if it's the WSB, can it say "ammo may be carried anywhere after start signal" and negate all the behind the hipbone rules?

See 5.2.4 and 3.2.5

I think I was wrong. 5.2.4 only allows the WSB to OK ammo on the table after the start signal. I can't find a rule that allows ammo on the table before the start signal.

[steel1212]

You can't grab a mag and run with it, from what I've been told...

Are you saying you can't have a magazine in your hand while shooting the course of fire?

Or hold it in your teeth? (yes, I've seen it done)??

For that matter, what's the rule that even ALLOWS a ammo on the table start? And if it's the WSB, can

What is the rule that wouldn't allow it?

And if it's the WSB, can it say "ammo may be carried anywhere after start signal" and negate all the behind the hipbone rules?

3.2.5 A written stage briefing must comply with the current USPSA rules

[SNSCaster2]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117793&st=0&p=1336331&hl=magwell&fromsearch=1entry1336331

This post shows which category I fall into Corey!

Anyways, I've seen single stack shooters a major matches carry a spare mag in their weak hand as if it were a cigar.. Could that be interpreted as a prop of some kind?

[Sarge]

I've never heard anyone say that you can't have a mag in your hand while shooting a course of fire. That seems like a pretty strict interpretation of 5.2.4. What if a competitor engages a couple of targets strong hand only while reaching for the mag to start his reload? Are you going to bump him to open?

Scenario: Shooter engages a target, initiates reload by grabbing mag from pouch, decides that he/she didn't like one of the shots on the last target, engages target with one more round stong hand only while holding the soon to be reloaded mag. Mag came from mag pouch, but is now in weak hand during last shot. Is that OK? I've seen that happen before.

This is a different scenario than picking up magazines from the table and holding them during the course of fire.

I have seen that several times myself. Shooter leaves a piece of steel standing and realizes it and engages it after pulling a mag.

[steel1212]

http://www.brianenos...1

This post shows which category I fall into Corey!

Anyways, I've seen single stack shooters a major matches carry a spare mag in their weak hand as if it were a cigar.. Could that be interpreted as a prop of some kind?

I'm not a super duper rules guy so I would have to do some research but my knee jerk is that if your magnetic holders are behind the hip your fine. As for the second part if they aren't actively reloading then just carrying it is a no-no.

[steel1212]

I've never heard anyone say that you can't have a mag in your hand while shooting a course of fire. That seems like a pretty strict interpretation of 5.2.4. What if a competitor engages a couple of targets strong hand only while reaching for the mag to start his reload? Are you going to bump him to open?

Scenario: Shooter engages a target, initiates reload by grabbing mag from pouch, decides that he/she didn't like one of the shots on the last target, engages target with one more round stong hand only while holding the soon to be reloaded mag. Mag came from mag pouch, but is now in weak hand during last shot. Is that OK? I've seen that happen before.

This is a different scenario than picking up magazines from the table and holding them during the course of fire.

I have seen that several times myself. Shooter leaves a piece of steel standing and realizes it and engages it after pulling a mag.

That would be a fine line huh? They are no longer actively reloading but at the same time what are they gaining. I think this is problem with this that NROI needs to address fast! In my opinion if you want to run around with mags in your hand have at it. I'm going to run around freestyle with my mags stowed and reloading from where I practice it.

[Steven Cline]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

(Appendix D, Item 12 identifies if your division restricts placement of equipment)

To answer the OP's question:

During a table/briefcase start with all ammo on table, is the shooter allowed to grab mags and put them in a shirt breast pocket?

Not in Single Stack, because the rule is clear- you have to carry them either in the retention devices on the competitor's belt specifically designed for that purpose AND because Appendix D, Item 12, requires Single Stack to see Appendix E3, which requires both the holster and ammunition to be behind the hip bone. The breast pocket would be forward of the hip bones.

Are you saying you can't have a magazine in your hand while shooting the course of fire.

Or hold it in your teeth? (yes, I've seen it done)??

The rule prohibits it.

For that matter, what's the rule that even ALLOWS a ammo on the table start?

Rule 5.2.4, when it says, "5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

And if it's the WSB, can it say "ammo may be carried anywhere after start signal" and negate all the behind the hipbone rules?

I would say, "no." Usually the WSB specifies that the ammunition to be used must be placed... (on barrels, in brief case, on table). The WSB does nto eliminate 5.2.4. Instead it complies with 5.2.4. It specifies were the ammo must be placed.

I'm guilty of the carrying the ammo in my hand during a CoF when the ammo was required to be placed on a Barrel/shelf/table etc: I considered it the appropriate gamer's response to stage designer's creating silly requirements like place ammo all over the friggin' CoF.

[mhs]

For that matter, what's the rule that even ALLOWS a ammo on the table start?

Rule 5.2.4, when it says, "5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

5.2.4 allows it after the start signal. I can't find a rule allowing it before the start signal, but I can't find one forbidding it either.

[Steven Cline]

If you really wan't to get stupid with 5.2.4, it doesn't allow you to have a mag in the gun, only in approved retention devices.

It says SPARE magazines/reloading devices have to be stored in retention devices. Spare meaning extras that are not the one you are using.

Stored means the one NOT in your hand.

There is no definition of "Stored" in the USPSA Rules Gloassary.

I don't know if the Rules dudes meant for this to happen, but there seems you can only carry ammo in the approved device on the belt, in pockets if they comply with D3, Item 12, as stipulated in the stage procedure, or loaded in your gun.

A magazine in the hand is not stored, not in the way stored in commonly understood. It is not stored in the approved device on the belt, in a pocket complying with D3, Item 12, it is not as stipulated in the WSB (not on table, not on barrel, not in case) and it is not loaded in the gun.

Now, in the practical application of our sport. If we meant to emulate a situation where I get up at night hearing a door kicked in... well hell yeah I'm carrying an extra mag in my hands since it's the most secure way to have that extra mag with me since I don't have mag pouches sewn into my pajama pants. If I found myself in a protracted gun fight and I new there were two mags on the coffee table, I'd load one ad carry the other as well.

I think the proper application of the rule is to say no mags in hands/teeth when that does not coply with 5.2.4 and D, Item 12. I think the practical application is to say that when a WSB requires the mags be placed on table, barrel, in case, etc. then the shooter can carry the extra mags anywhere he wants after retrieving the mags.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Steven Cline

[Steven Cline]

For that matter, what's the rule that even ALLOWS a ammo on the table start?

Rule 5.2.4, when it says, "5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

5.2.4 allows it after the start signal. I can't find a rule allowing it before the start signal, but I can't find one forbidding it either.

May I humbly suggest you are looking at it incorrectly.

You don't need a rule allowing for a "thing." Every "thing" is allowed unless it is prohibitted. Sometimes the prohibitted "thing" is very clearly identified, othertimes it is generally prohibitted, but the prohibitted "thing" is only prohibitted when we have a prohibition.

There must be a rule prohibitting a "thing." A lot of "things" are allowed for in stage design and none of those "things" are specifically named in the rules. They are allowed because they are not prohibitted.

Now that we understand that we don't need a rule allowing something, we look for the rule prohibitting it.

There is a rule prohibitting the placement of ammo on the table (since the rule requires ammo on the belt or in apparel submit to additional rules) BUT there is also an exception to that rule: "...unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure..."

There is also clarification/restriction- the words, "during the course of fire" which can not be read seperate from "after the start signal." They go together, and together they mean that after the start signal spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose unless stipulated otherwise in thh stage procedure. This means it is not a violation of rule 5.2.4 to have the shooter place the ammunition on the table if it is stipulated in the stage procedure that the ammunition be on the table.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Steven Cline