RiggerJJ Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Barrysuperhawk, I feel your pain... I shoot both reddot and iron sights in HM, and the dot IS a definite advantage. I will be using irons this match because of the late notice as well. If you want to attend a match where HM division has irons only, try RM3G... as for the prize table, I find that seperate prize tables pretty much screw competitors in the smaller divisions... JMHO. Buckle down with you iron sighted rifle and do your best. Remember the rifle is only one gun in a three gun match.... see ya next week! JJ Edited May 11, 2011 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Well said, JJ. I originally felt indifferent to dots allowed in both Tac Irons and HM, but as we're seeing less and less competitors actually using real irons, I feel we may be of a self-induced dieing breed. That's the nice thing about using a M1A- they suck so bad w/ any kind of optic mounted that I'm not even tempted to try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-=VILLAMOR=- Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) I just spent the past two days training with a new M4 with an Eotech and back-up iron sights. Last time I shot with an Eotech was before I left SWAT 3 years ago. And I've been shooting irons with my rifles since then. Having to train with both Eotech and the iron sights and comparing them, it reaffirms my belief that 1x optics provide a clear advantage over iron sights. I said it here before, 1x are meant for fast target acquisition. That is why LE and the military uses them. As for those that believe that the 1x optics loses it's advantage in log distance, wake up and see the new technology. They have 1x optics now available with 1 moa dot, and some even has reticles that has markings for bullet drops at distances. And the technology will only get better. In 3-gun, we all must have atleast the basic equipment to play the game. With the exception of a few really good shooters like Kurt Miller who shoots well with any gun, others depend on the equipment they use. The best equipment is not a must, but it'll help if you want to be competitive. Having said that, one of the reasons to allow the red dots in irons is to give them a place where they can shoot and not get their butts handed to them in optics division. To me, optics is optics, and they should have better prepared for what they want to use it for. In 3-gun, you better have more than 1X in the optics division. I know that rifle is only one gun of the three. But now that 1x optics in iron divisions have started to become the norm, look at the results of iron divisions in Blue Ridge where the rifle was the most-used gun, the winners were using 1x optics. It was just a matter of time before a good iron shooter switches to red dot and dominate. I can see more iron shooters eventually start using red dots to stay competitve. And when that happens, what are they going to do when the new shooters with iron sights gets their butts handed to them by the red dots? Are we going to tell them to go buy a red dot if they want to play better? I also believe that politics plays a role in this. Look at some of the major sponsors for the events. You got Leupold, Eotech, Aimpoint, Bushnell, Vortex to name a few that specializes in optics. If irons stays irons, they lose out on having their products being used in 2 out of the 4 or 5 divisions. Edited May 11, 2011 by -=VILLAMOR=- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 That being said by Villamor, He and I will both be shooting irons next week. He in heavy metal and I in tac, iron or limited, or whatever they are calling it these days. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastorjohnd Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I just spent the past two days training with a new M4 with an Eotech and back-up iron sights. Last time I shot with an Eotech was before I left SWAT 3 years ago. And I've been shooting irons with my rifles since then. Having to train with both Eotech and the iron sights and comparing them, it reaffirms my belief that 1x optics provide a clear advantage over iron sights. I said it here before, 1x are meant for fast target acquisition. That is why LE and the military uses them. As for those that believe that the 1x optics loses it's advantage in log distance, wake up and see the new technology. They have 1x optics now available with 1 moa dot, and some even has reticles that has markings for bullet drops at distances. And the technology will only get better. In 3-gun, we all must have atleast the basic equipment to play the game. With the exception of a few really good shooters like Kurt Miller who shoots well with any gun, others depend on the equipment they use. The best equipment is not a must, but it'll help if you want to be competitive. Having said that, one of the reasons to allow the red dots in irons is to give them a place where they can shoot and not get their butts handed to them in optics division. To me, optics is optics, and they should have better prepared for what they want to use it for. In 3-gun, you better have more than 1X in the optics division. I know that rifle is only one gun of the three. But now that 1x optics in iron divisions have started to become the norm, look at the results of iron divisions in Blue Ridge where the rifle was the most-used gun, the winners were using 1x optics. It was just a matter of time before a good iron shooter switches to red dot and dominate. I can see more iron shooters eventually start using red dots to stay competitve. And when that happens, what are they going to do when the new shooters with iron sights gets their butts handed to them by the red dots? Are we going to tell them to go buy a red dot if they want to play better? I also believe that politics plays a role in this. Look at some of the major sponsors for the events. You got Leupold, Eotech, Aimpoint, Bushnell, Vortex to name a few that specializes in optics. If irons stays irons, they lose out on having their products being used in 2 out of the 4 or 5 divisions. This. At first I was ambivalent about 1x optics competing with irons, but in HM the Eotech 552.XR308 is going to be a game changer. Optics won’t make a marginal shooter great, but they will make a great shooter unbeatable without them. That being said, I’m not putting glass on my M1A. If it comes to the point that I feel the need for it I’ll start shooting TO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firetoad Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 To those mentioning wives and kids, my wife and kiddos are coming up that Friday afternoon and making it a mini-vacation as well. My wife would love to come and see the match, but unfortunately, no babysitter. But, she will be at the match in spirit and physically at the pool withe kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrysuperhawk Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) I guess what hurts the most is that Heavy Metal is supposed to be a Restricted division, much like single stack in USPSA. This decision is like saying because so many people run Glocks and STI hi-cap guns, let's just allow them into the Single Stack classic. As much as I hate USPSA's take on Multigun, at least with USPSA the rules don't change from match to match. Last year there wer what 20 of us out of 250+ shooters? It's not like Leupold is going to go broke if they can't market optics to such a small slice of the competitors... Now, don't get me wrong, this will be the third year I have shot CMMG, and I LOVE the match. I love the crazy RO's, I love the ridiculusly long shotgun stages, I love those stupid little steel plates that laugh at you instead of falling, I love the cool ass range, I love shakespeares pizza at the end of the day, I even love the mud, but Dammint, leave heavy metal alone. Just one class, that's all I ask, Full on USPSA Single Stack rules for pistol, 8+1 12 Ga Pump Shotgun with full power loads, and a 20 round .308 Rifle. No Comps, no optics, no siamese mags, nothing on the belt forward of the seams, no Race holsters... Just one class where I don't have to invest more in the bleeding optics than the guns... Is that so much to ask? Really? On an unrelated note, I am trying a new Motel this time, the Quality Inn, in Columbia. Anyone have an opinion about this motel? Edited May 12, 2011 by barrysuperhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 unmagnified optics was NOT allowed into irons "to give them a place to play and not get their butts handed to them" it was done to increase the numbers in the "iron" sight division!! I was an outspoken proponent of doing this simply because the Iron class was 8-15 shooters at every match, so we got our asses handed to us by MD's because we were not a large enough class to be listened to when it came to target presentation, or prize table distribution. You speak about not being able to beat a good shooter when they use an unmag. optic could you beat that shooter before?????? Yes, now the average unmag optic shooter has a place to play and not get thrashed, but they are still not competitive, because they are still average, in the division a good shooter is still a good shooter regardless of sight system, it may become a gear driven class but it isn't yet, and I don't think it will happen any time soon, those people saying they did this or that because of their "new" optic are the same type people making the claims that you NEED a 2500.00 scope to be competitive in T.O. division. You don't!!! you need trigger time. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usp45ss Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) unmagnified optics was NOT allowed into irons "to give them a place to play and not get their butts handed to them" it was done to increase the numbers in the "iron" sight division!! I was an outspoken proponent of doing this simply because the Iron class was 8-15 shooters at every match, so we got our asses handed to us by MD's because we were not a large enough class to be listened to when it came to target presentation, or prize table distribution. You speak about not being able to beat a good shooter when they use an unmag. optic could you beat that shooter before?????? Yes, now the average unmag optic shooter has a place to play and not get thrashed, but they are still not competitive, because they are still average, in the division a good shooter is still a good shooter regardless of sight system, it may become a gear driven class but it isn't yet, and I don't think it will happen any time soon, those people saying they did this or that because of their "new" optic are the same type people making the claims that you NEED a 2500.00 scope to be competitive in T.O. division. You don't!!! you need trigger time. trapr Amen. That being said, I still want to see Kelly Neal and Kurt square off in a irons vs. 1x optic battle. (Even though it doesn't mean anything. It will still boil down to who shot a better match. Not equipment.) Edited May 12, 2011 by usp45ss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 they did!!! SMM3G this year only Kurt's front post got bent on a LR stage coming out of a barrel and it cost him big points, so Kelly won. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usp45ss Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 they did!!! SMM3G this year only Kurt's front post got bent on a LR stage coming out of a barrel and it cost him big points, so Kelly won. trapr So you're saying Kelly's equipment won him the match.... Just kidding. I hate I missed out on that match. We'll see you guys in Missouri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle O Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I shot 1x optics before it was cool too (in Tac Optics). I was OK, but all it took was some practice, and now I'm better. So, I'll have to chime in to say that it was the practice/match experience that helped overall, not the red dot. I shot irons before, and still think I could swing a pair of those around if needed, but only if I run out of batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I want to see them in the ring at the MMA fight next friday. That would be awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrysuperhawk Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 unmagnified optics was NOT allowed into irons "to give them a place to play and not get their butts handed to them" it was done to increase the numbers in the "iron" sight division!! I was an outspoken proponent of doing this simply because the Iron class was 8-15 shooters at every match, so we got our asses handed to us by MD's because we were not a large enough class to be listened to when it came to target presentation, or prize table distribution. You speak about not being able to beat a good shooter when they use an unmag. optic could you beat that shooter before?????? Yes, now the average unmag optic shooter has a place to play and not get thrashed, but they are still not competitive, because they are still average, in the division a good shooter is still a good shooter regardless of sight system, it may become a gear driven class but it isn't yet, and I don't think it will happen any time soon, those people saying they did this or that because of their "new" optic are the same type people making the claims that you NEED a 2500.00 scope to be competitive in T.O. division. You don't!!! you need trigger time. trapr Ok Trapr, I like you and really respect your opinions, even though you consistently whoop me, but are you really saying that a red dot is no competitive advantage over irons? If that's the case why does adding one to your pistol or your shotgun dump the user into open? Increasing the numbers in the "Iron Sight" Division is a laudable cause and I respect the intent, but doing it by adding optics does seem a bit like an oxymoron? I do have to agree about the target presentation being slightly more difficult if you are shooting Heavy Metal, but to my eyes that's sort of the point of the class. For the record, *I* never complained about not being able to beat anyone, what I was whining about is changing the rules of a class that has been pretty static across the board for several years, just DAYS before the match. You also can't seriously be arguing that the only difference between the $2500 optic guys and the $200 optic guys is trigger time. Granted, the competitors that invest that much mostly also shoot alot more, but they don't spend that $$ just to look cool, they spend it because it gives them a competitive advantage. The whole reason this entire sport has any rules at all [other than safety rules] is to try to get as close to a level playing field as possible. Open guys shoot vs open guys, TO vs TO, HM vs HM. I sincerely hope you are correct, that the optics are NOT going to affect the results, but, on Sunday when the scores are done, I will be very interested to see the distribution of the optic vs irons on the scores. You and Fordyce and Kelly, and Villamor will all still whoop me, optics or not. And I hope you don't take my opinions personally. Shoot Straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Is this an event where its 8 rounds maximum in the shotgun tube for TO, or is it 9 in the gun at the start, and then we can add after that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Is this an event where its 8 rounds maximum in the shotgun tube for TO, or is it 9 in the gun at the start, and then we can add after that? Last year I ran my 12 round tube adn could load more after the beep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 they did!!! SMM3G this year only Kurt's front post got bent on a LR stage coming out of a barrel and it cost him big points, so Kelly won. trapr Woah! Kurt bending his front sight cost him about 40 match points and I beat him by about 40 match points. So had he not bent his sight, would would have shot nearly the same score. It could have gone either way had he not bent his sight BUT I did not necessarily win because he did so. I did tend to beat him in the more rifle heavy stages and as always he beats me up with the shotgun. Allowing 1X has really grown the division at Rio Salado's monthly match. Both Kurt and I feel it makes little difference in a typically 3 gun match. Irons are very competitive until you start shooting in lowlight conditions and/or crazy Kyle Lamb-esque positions. I don't think this will make it a gear driven division. A good set of irons (which are necessary to compete) is not much less than an Eotech or Pris. I applaud CMMG's decision to allow 1Xs in Heavy Metal and Tac Iron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 On an unrelated note, I am trying a new Motel this time, the Quality Inn, in Columbia. Anyone have an opinion about this motel? The room is ok, the location is ok, the price is ok. The breakfast is a full hot smorgasboard - we love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 29 match points but who is counting? I fear no dot, hell I don't fear any 1-4 optics either. Kelly talks about low light and yet didn't even have a battery in his Pris...so ha ha Mr. "Persecuter". Might I take this moment to remind all you "gear" junkies that I have taken my Iron Sight rifle and entered Tac Optic and finished 4th and 6th over-all at major matches so where does this leave those who say the dot is a DEFINIT game changer??. A dot is no advantage, it isn't a disadvantage either, but it does support Ray-o-vac and Energizer so it has to be better Besides I was able to bend my front sight back straight with a Leatherman and continue on. If your dot was broken could you fix it with a Leatherman tool? 1X division will continue to be dominated by those who put in the time at the range, not by who put,s in the time at SWAFA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) I want to see them in the ring at the MMA fight next friday. That would be awesome! Foolishness! There's only one way to see who is faster with a rilfe - a five mile marathon rifle run! Have fun at CMMG guys! Edited May 13, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 29 match points but who is counting? I fear no dot, hell I don't fear any 1-4 optics either. Kelly talks about low light and yet didn't even have a battery in his Pris...so ha ha Mr. "Persecuter". Might I take this moment to remind all you "gear" junkies that I have taken my Iron Sight rifle and entered Tac Optic and finished 4th and 6th over-all at major matches so where does this leave those who say the dot is a DEFINIT game changer??. A dot is no advantage, it isn't a disadvantage either, but it does support Ray-o-vac and Energizer so it has to be better Besides I was able to bend my front sight back straight with a Leatherman and continue on. If your dot was broken could you fix it with a Leatherman tool? 1X division will continue to be dominated by those who put in the time at the range, not by who put,s in the time at SWAFA! Yeah, but would you have finished 3 or 5th with a red dot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Kurt, I don't think it's a fair comparison to put you in the same group as us mortals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Kurt, I don't think it's a fair comparison to put you in the same group as us mortals. you two ...:Get a Room: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Chuck, I am slower with a dot, not by much but definitly slower. I use a dot all the time when I do training so I look like the guys I am training, and I hate every minute of it. 5th?? Hell more like 25th. Dots...for me.....blow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fueddy Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 well I check the Midwest site a few times aday...lack of a life at times....Squad Lists are up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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