Is USPSA about accuracy?

[Coach]

Based on USPSA shooters performance on topshot is USPSA enough about accuracy or has it become about speed?

Should we shrink the size of the A zone?

[Cy Soto]

IMO, in this game, speed is king!

[Coach]

IMO, in this game, speed is king!

That seems to be the case since some of our best did not do real well in an accuracy contest. We are supposed to be about balance between accuracy,speed and power.

[JakeMartens]

points matter, you just have to get them real fast

[Jim Norman]

Accuracy is relative. We need to hit the center of mass VERY FAST. A bullseye shooter shoots 5 shots in 10 seconds, considers that rapid fire and makes a group only a bit over an inch at 25 yards. We on the other hand turn, draw, fire six shots, reload and fire six more all in a 5 inch circle at 7 yards and do it in under 6 seconds.

That is what USPSA is all about, accuracy AND speed in balance.

We could certainly use some tighter shots. Matches with all open targets at 5 yards are not doing us or our shooters any favors. neither is a match with all partial targets at 25 yards.

[Flexmoney]

A tommy gun, a bow, a tomahawk, and bad hamstrings...hard to think that top shot has much relevance to our sport?

[tpcdvc]

Accuracy is relative. We need to hit the center of mass VERY FAST. A bullseye shooter shoots 5 shots in 10 seconds, considers that rapid fire and makes a group only a bit over an inch at 25 yards. We on the other hand turn, draw, fire six shots, reload and fire six more all in a 5 inch circle at 7 yards and do it in under 6 seconds.

That is what USPSA is all about, accuracy AND speed in balance.

We could certainly use some tighter shots. Matches with all open targets at 5 yards are not doing us or our shooters any favors. neither is a match with all partial targets at 25 yards.

+1

The kind of trigger control we use in USPSA is really great for what we do, but I don't think it is best for pure accuracy. I imagine that most of the other competitors are using a surprise break and not the prep, perfect sight picture, and then break with intention and see your sights lift deal. Most good USPSA shooters can easily shoot at speed while keeping everything in the A zone at 25yds (and that is best for practical pistol application both in our sport and the real world), but not for pure accuracy shooting IMO. And that is what is being done more often than not on Top Shot.

Edited March 17, 2011 by tpcdvc

[JakeMartens]

A tommy gun, a bow, a tomahawk, and bad hamstrings...hard to think that top shot has much relevance to our sport?

Nope

but I guess the question is have we become more about speed than accuracy?

[Nik Habicht]

Based on USPSA shooters performance on topshot is USPSA enough about accuracy or has it become about speed?

Should we shrink the size of the A zone?

I think stage designers have that option already -- black tape and spray paint are cheap......

[Nik Habicht]

A tommy gun, a bow, a tomahawk, and bad hamstrings...hard to think that top shot has much relevance to our sport?

Nope

but I guess the question is have we become more about speed than accuracy?

The last three matches I've shot have featured a balance -- often on the same stage. Heck, I made a 16 shot stage with two paper targets and only 12 plates such a challenge that the average time was somewhere around sixteen seconds. The paper were wide open and close, and required a bill drill on each, the plates, well they were farther away and required awkward positions....

The goal was to test the ability to transition between the types of vision/focus required to score well on the stage....

[alpha-charlie]

I think our sport really focuses on accuracy if you want to seriously compete. We have to be accurate on the move, close up, far away, strong handed, weak handed, prone, kneeling, etc etc. If you're blasting through stages and ending up with C's and D's the other competitiors who are a few seconds slower than you but with a majority of A's are gonna stomp you. I know the argument of "Can you miss fast enough to win" has been done but in the long run, if you're not accurate and only fast, the pretty fast and really accurate guys are gonna catch you eventually. Being 5 seconds faster than everyone is great, but Mikes, No-shoots and Deltas add up real quick.

ETA: +1 on what Nik said. He summed up my second sentence nicely. (Was typing when he posted)

Edited March 17, 2011 by alpha-charlie

[Coach]

I was thinking about one of our National Champions not performing well at shooting pool balls. One would expect that a national champion should not be one of the weaker shooters. I had told my non USPSA shooting brother that Chris Tilley can shoot the week before the show started. He called me after that episode to see what had happened to my mind.

I get the balance between speed and accuracy but I am wondering if the scales are tipped in favor of speed. How often did it come up already. 2005 Rob Leatham interview on the Saul Kirsh dvd, Robbie said something to the effect that we all love the speed but have forgotten that we still need to shoot.

I had toyed with the idea as match director of going to the classic targets because the A zone is smaller, and therefore presenting more of an accuracy challenge. I decided against it because I did not want to use a headless target, and seem politically correct. How many people hate shooting those targets? Plenty because it is a smaller target. Speed, Speed, Speed. Are we really in balance?

Topshot does not have to be our sport to point out a potential weakness.

[RePete]

It's about how much money you spend on your equipment.

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas is accuracy, power, and speed.

This is what IPSC/USPSA is about.

[Cy Soto]

I had toyed with the idea as match director of going to the classic targets because the A zone is smaller, and therefore presenting more of an accuracy challenge. I decided against it because I did not want to use a headless target, and seem politically correct. How many people hate shooting those targets? Plenty because it is a smaller target. Speed, Speed, Speed. Are we really in balance?

I know a local GM that only shoots Classic targets in practice. His idea being that they are smaller and require more concentration to get your alphas.

Political Correctness aside, I think that most USPSA shooters present resistance to these targets precisely because they are harder to extract your points from them. I for one wish that they were used more frequently.

[glefos]

Speed and accuracy are both relative. You have to quantify them to get any kind of answer we can discuss. Think about shooting disciplines. Is half inch group at 100yds competitive in benchrest? Are 10 shots in 60 seconds acceptable anywhere in uspsa?

Why not ask if bullseye rapid fire is truly rapid fire?

Score divided by time. Hit factor is our game.

[HICKMAN]

Weren't they all 3 Open shooters?

Send some Production/Limited shooters and they will probably fair a little better.

Probably why Blake did so well, was looking for the sight, not a dot.

[waxman]

Good points, Do you think that we were all just overconfident as a group.Do you remember the post on here a few year ago about the mediocer B shooter actually being like a blackbelt? Maybe we are not as good all around as we think. When I say this, I mean look at Athena Lee, She is one of the best female shooters we have, but on top shot, I dont think she hit 1 target she shot at.Chris Tilly really only did well on the plates, and there ,he was just average in the group.

I am sure if there was a Topshot challenge of close USPSA targets, most here would destroy the average gun totin american shooter. My question is, does this represent a good shooter? Maybe it is the stress of a TV audience, or maybe we have become too dependent on fantastic pistols with 1 lb triggers.Or maybe all of this compeating with each other has given us a superiority complex against non USPSA shooters. I am just feeling a little stupid each year when I tell my buds about how great this Gm, or this M on the show is, and 2 episodes later they get sent home, by some jo blow " I shoot in the backyard with my kin" type.

[Nik Habicht]

I had toyed with the idea as match director of going to the classic targets because the A zone is smaller, and therefore presenting more of an accuracy challenge. I decided against it because I did not want to use a headless target, and seem politically correct. How many people hate shooting those targets? Plenty because it is a smaller target.

My club has most of the same concerns when it comes to switching to the Classic target. So we compromise -- and order 900 metric targets and 100 Classic targets when we need an order. Chuck at SC has been good about the mix/match for 1,000 target pricing, and we get to break the classics out for a stage here and there...

I like shooting both targets. Really want to make people aim? Replace poppers with plates....

[bill d]

I was thinking about one of our National Champions not performing well at shooting pool balls. One would expect that a national champion should not be one of the weaker shooters. I had told my non USPSA shooting brother that Chris Tilley can shoot the week before the show started. He called me after that episode to see what had happened to my mind.

I get the balance between speed and accuracy but I am wondering if the scales are tipped in favor of speed. How often did it come up already. 2005 Rob Leatham interview on the Saul Kirsh dvd, Robbie said something to the effect that we all love the speed but have forgotten that we still need to shoot.

I had toyed with the idea as match director of going to the classic targets because the A zone is smaller, and therefore presenting more of an accuracy challenge. I decided against it because I did not want to use a headless target, and seem politically correct. How many people hate shooting those targets? Plenty because it is a smaller target. Speed, Speed, Speed. Are we really in balance?

Topshot does not have to be our sport to point out a potential weakness.

Quick note in Chris Tilleys defense: Where was the gun sighted in at and who sighted in the gun? Example if you sight in a gun for 10 yards, do YOU know where to hold the sight off to connect at 50 yards if you are going for a bullseye?

You should come to the Florida Open if you want to see accuracy. Many 25 to 40 yard shots.....on poppers too.

Edited March 17, 2011 by bill d

[Chuck Anderson]

Good points, Do you think that we were all just overconfident as a group.Do you remember the post on here a few year ago about the mediocer B shooter actually being like a blackbelt? Maybe we are not as good all around as we think. When I say this, I mean look at Athena Lee, She is one of the best female shooters we have, but on top shot, I dont think she hit 1 target she shot at.Chris Tilly really only did well on the plates, and there ,he was just average in the group.

I am sure if there was a Topshot challenge of close USPSA targets, most here would destroy the average gun totin american shooter. My question is, does this represent a good shooter? Maybe it is the stress of a TV audience, or maybe we have become too dependent on fantastic pistols with 1 lb triggers.Or maybe all of this compeating with each other has given us a superiority complex against non USPSA shooters. I am just feeling a little stupid each year when I tell my buds about how great this Gm, or this M on the show is, and 2 episodes later they get sent home, by some jo blow " I shoot in the backyard with my kin" type.

Chris did a bit better than average on the plates, he beat everyone, on both teams with the number of hits certainly, and I'd be willing to bet he did it in a much shorter time as well. When you get to the skill level Chris, Maggie, and Athena are at you've fired enough rounds that you really are in tune with the gun. That's why you don't see many National Champions hopping between Divisions at every other match. The pick a gun and stick with it. If they do have a different gun (Dave Sevigny's Glock 35/34) I will bet you they are very close to each other. As close as possible. Take that instinctive shooting ability with a red dot sighted gun and a 2 pound trigger and try to translate it to a stock 1911 with crappy sights and an 8 pound trigger and if you're pushing, things won't go well.

As far as USPSA being about speed over accuracy, it all depends on stage design. Last years Nationals was certainly biased more towards accuracy than speed.

[waxman]

Well Chuck, your coverage must have been better then mine, to make a statement like that. I just watched the DVR about 10 times in slow motion, with many pauses and counts. From what I saw. Tilly shot 11, 12, and then 8. Several competitors inluding Kyle, and George shot 11's and 12's and at least 2 other shooters hit with every shot once you had to load your mag first, which gave 8. Even if my counting is off 1 or 2, .The way the camera work is done, it is really hard to count iindividual competitor shots. I stick to my statement, Chris was just average.

[LexTalionis]

In Season 1, Brad E and Mike S were both production shooters. As I recall, neither did extraordinarily well in accuracy-related events.

[Jim Norman]

On the perennial discussion of "Classic" vs Metric targets. The comment that one is harder to score on then the other is bogus. Aim for and hit the center of mass and you have two Alphas on either target. If you play the "Spray and Pray" game then the Metric is more forgiving, slightly.

I personally like the Metric and since IPSC has de-listed it as a viable target, I'd like to see USPSA pick it up and rename it the USPSA Classic.

All this is a drift away from the argument of accuracy however. It is easy to make a stage demand accuracy, This weekend we had one the used US poppers at 15 yards as opposed to Pepper Poppers. Put plates in place instead of Poppers, put hard cover on targets, as Nik said, Paint and Tape is cheap. We can turn our matches into accuracy matches. Distance is not the only thing required. Want to see people trip over themselves, set up a COF with partials at 5 yards, people will run over themselves as they will shoot faster than they really an and the misses and NS hits will add up. It is a lot like having the fastest draw, who cares if you can draw in .8 and I take 1.4 if the first shot is after a 10 yard run and the whole COF takes 30 seconds? The 0.6 is not likely to be the deciding factor. DVC, practice it, We need speed to win, fast is good, but fast misses are not a wining strategy. Accuracy is good, but being timed with a sundial won't win you any matches. Our sport is PRACTICAL shooting. Not Bullseye, and for that matter not knife throwing, Sub-gun shooting or archery.

If you set up a really good Nationals or Area quality stage on Top Shot and turned any of our people loose on it with a gun that they owned, I seriously doubt that the rest of that crew would keep up. If you put Brian Fergussen up with the bow, I don't think any of the rest would have stood a chance.

Let us all be honest here, we are watching Survivor Cake decorating with weapons and not a shooting competition. Set up a muti-discipline shooting contest, out right shooting, USPSA, Bianchi, Bullseye, High-Power, Multi-Gun, Sporting Clay match. two stages of each, have everyone shoot them all and score the match, see who comes out on top then. Not saying it would be one of ours, but at least it would be a realistic contest.

[Chuck Anderson]

Well Chuck, your coverage must have been better then mine, to make a statement like that. I just watched the DVR about 10 times in slow motion, with many pauses and counts. From what I saw. Tilly shot 11, 12, and then 8. Several competitors inluding Kyle, and George shot 11's and 12's and at least 2 other shooters hit with every shot once you had to load your mag first, which gave 8. Even if my counting is off 1 or 2, .The way the camera work is done, it is really hard to count iindividual competitor shots. I stick to my statement, Chris was just average.

Not gonna argue it, but take a read through the thread on that episode. One of our members went through and came up with some pretty good percentages, based on frame by framing. Chris hit 78%, if memory serves next was somewhere in the 50ish range.

[jar]

Weren't they all 3 Open shooters?

Send some Production/Limited shooters and they will probably fair a little better.

Probably why Blake did so well, was looking for the sight, not a dot.

Chris Tilley is also a GM in limited, and shot 90% in limited nationals last year and 87% the year before.

Let us all be honest here, we are watching Survivor Cake decorating with weapons and not a shooting competition. Set up a muti-discipline shooting contest, out right shooting, USPSA, Bianchi, Bullseye, High-Power, Multi-Gun, Sporting Clay match. two stages of each, have everyone shoot them all and score the match, see who comes out on top then. Not saying it would be one of ours, but at least it would be a realistic contest.

I shot a match like this but limited to action pistol that was a memorial for a popular shooter who shot all the disciplines who died suddenly of a heart attack. Stages were, IDPA low light standards, regular IDPA stage, USPSA field course, steel challenge (smoke and hope), and 30 knockdown steel. It was a blast, and it's running again this year. I'm also kicking around the idea of a match like you describe inspired by the complaining about top shot a local forum. 22LR bullseye, centerfire pistol steel challenge stage, rimfire rifle steel stage, highpower rifle national match course (though with any sights), and a round of trap.