Cy Soto Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 So it seems the era of the barber-pole is gone. From John Amidon this afternoon: Vince, As Appendix D4 item 21.2a Slide refinishing states, “this clause is now interpreted to specifically allow refinishing the frame as well as the slide subject to the existing constraints on refinishing (cosmetic only, no competitive advantage). Putting a paint mark on the magwell as a reference point to insert the magazine, to me would fall under competitive advantage. John From: vluc Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:06 AM To: dnroi@uspsa.org Subject: production question Is it legal to paint or mark inside the magazine well in production? See thread at Enos: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125129&pid=1413398&st=0entry1413398 Vince That answer is not at all what I expected it to be. This goes to show that some questions are better left "unasked"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Vince, Putting a paint mark on the magwell as a reference point to insert the magazine, to me would fall under competitive advantage. John Ok it's not a reference point but decoration, now it's ok. Add your initials in the paint now it's decoration and not a reference point. Some of the quotes by JA posted here really make me wonder if we should only provide a well thought out and planned question to JA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Put your name or initials in morse code or binary in the magwell and it's a mark of ownership. Or even better, a barcode with the gun's serial number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDM Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 How far up in the magwell would it have to be, to be considered an internal mod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 (edited) That answer is not at all what I expected it to be. This goes to show that some questions are better left "unasked"... You know, that thought did go through my mind, but I've always been one to flip over rocks. Have to be willing to deal with whatever pops up when you flip it over! If not me, it would have been someone else. How can I, as an SC, ignore the question and not want an answer? Now if the op had not asked the question, and I'd not read the thread, who knows?! It does bring us back to the head scratching of the interpretations. No, it is not "official", but there seems to be little consistency that we can see/figure in the decision making. I can refinish the slide in another color, stipple the grip and change the contours of the gun, but can't put a tiny piece of grip tape under the trigger guard or a spot of paint on the inside of the gun as they are "competitive advantages". So is going to a match the day before and scoping the stages. I might be able to afford that extra day, somebody else may not. Who has the advantage? We preach Indian not arrow, but don't personalize that arrow! Edited March 19, 2011 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 What is the dot in the mag well for? Is it to guide the mag in the gun? If so, is that not an aide? Going by the rules, no aides. Changing it to morse code or whatever now becomes circumventing the rules, hence wrong. I don't want to win that way. Not that I win any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Hang tight guys. I bounced the question to the BOD this AM. I think part of that may have been the way the question was phrased. I'll let you know what the answer is as soon as I get it. As far as wanting to circumvent the rules I doubt anyone is looking here to cheat. It's just many Production shooters have had this done for years and years, have gone to Nationals and never had an issue with it. It's just a bit surprising to have a change like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I did not say cheat. But aides are not allowed, right? Whether morse code or whatever. I guess it comes down to what is an aide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Hang tight guys. I bounced the question to the BOD this AM. I think part of that may have been the way the question was phrased. I'll let you know what the answer is as soon as I get it. Thank you, Chuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Hang tight guys. I bounced the question to the BOD this AM. I think part of that may have been the way the question was phrased. I'll let you know what the answer is as soon as I get it. As far as wanting to circumvent the rules I doubt anyone is looking here to cheat. It's just many Production shooters have had this done for years and years, have gone to Nationals and never had an issue with it. It's just a bit surprising to have a change like this. Thanks, Chuck. Passed on to my AD as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Vince, Putting a paint mark on the magwell as a reference point to insert the magazine, to me would fall under competitive advantage. John Ok it's not a reference point but decoration, now it's ok. Add your initials in the paint now it's decoration and not a reference point. Some of the quotes by JA posted here really make me wonder if we should only provide a well thought out and planned question to JA. Taken from the OP's message: Just wanted to ask y'all if it's legal to paint the inside of the magwell if you shoot production. Same as my question. JA added the "reference point" interpretation to clarify his answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 (edited) Opps, sorry, should have read all the way to the end. John made the right call. Those "decorative" markings are there to aid the shooter in his reload. To provide a competitive advantage. We all know it. Edited March 19, 2011 by Steven Cline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glefos Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Isn't everything we do the gun in our sport for a competitive advantage? Otherwise, why would you do it? Fiber optic front sight, replacement grips, stippling/grip tape, trigger jobs, polishing the feed ramp, etc, etc, etc. Some might say functionality or reliability. The goal is to reduce malfunctions, aka reduce stage time and increase hit factor. Any change a shooter makes to his/her gun is because he/she thinks it gives them a competitive advantage. Yes, no? A dot in the mag well seems trivial considering the other mods done in the name of function and reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro-Pain Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Maybe I'm confused (which happens easily), but this is an "internal modification," is it not? Production Rules , Appendix D4 21.5 says • Strikers, sears, springs, connectors/disconnectors, and any other part which is NOT visible when the gun is in battery is considered an INTERNAL part and may be modified or replaced unless otherwise prohibited in these my emphasis. This part of the magwell is another part, not visible in battery (if done where the magazine sits in), and is modified. So is it legal if you can't see it when the magazine is inserted? Is the inside of the frame, which CAN BE construed as a part, be known as an "internal part" on the inside? That's all you're changing, an internal part? Or am I completely off in this line of thinking? (to be honest, I JUST found out about this trick, and wanted to try it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmysterious Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 The gun is still in battery during a mag change (provided that you didn't run it dry) and it would be visible. I guess a strong case could be made for either side of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha-charlie Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 So the internal magwell on my Glock 34 is production legal but the orange nail polish is not??? Since an internal magwell is deemed legal and definetely gives a competitive advantage but is classified as an internal part, wouldn't the orange mark also be legal?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Since plugs that don't the change the gun's profile, as well as the Sevigny Speedway are legal (as per 22.2 and 22.4), who said that the plastic used for these has to be black or match the color of the frame? Alternatively, as far as I know, there is no rule restricting shooters from using pro-grip. Doesn't the white residue of the pro-grip on the shooters hand wrapped around the grip help outline the dark opening of the magwell? What's to restrict a shooter from drawing the same barber pole on top of the pro-grip on their hand other than possibly looking silly with a striped hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro-Pain Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Since plugs that don't the change the gun's profile, as well as the Sevigny Speedway are legal (as per 22.2 and 22.4), who said that the plastic used for these has to be black or match the color of the frame? Alternatively, as far as I know, there is no rule restricting shooters from using pro-grip. Doesn't the white residue of the pro-grip on the shooters hand wrapped around the grip help outline the dark opening of the magwell? What's to restrict a shooter from drawing the same barber pole on top of the pro-grip on their hand other than possibly looking silly with a striped hand? Or skate tape. You can get the tape in every color or design. The rules just say skate tape, doesn't say it has to be black? What if the inside of the magwell (or outside, for that matter) is scuffed up? Could be "normal wear and tear," but produce a graying/whitening effect if severe enough? We start down this slippery slope, pretty soon holster wear is going to be confused for forward cocking serrations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan45kim Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Hey Chuck have you heard anything for the BOD on this yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatekeeper Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Just saw this new ruling on the USPSA website http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=47 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmysterious Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) Saw this in another thread, apparently they made a ruling. Edited April 5, 2011 by bobmysterious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmysterious Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) Glad I went ahead and removed it. Edited April 5, 2011 by bobmysterious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Merged topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Well then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 So you can't paint inside your magwell but you can bevel it, or on like Glocks fill it in with some material and completley rehape it to make a smoother magwell (it was called an internal mod)? You can take a soldering iron to your grip, and make a permanent external mod, but no paint. You can mill your slide for aftermarket sights, making a permanent external mod, but no paint. You can... oh never mind. This is why I don't shoot Production any more. PLEASE quit asking Amidon questions, for problems that don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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