Minor in L10 more logical than Production?

[kamikaze1a]

I recently read about a Limited shooter thinking about moving to Pd and loading a 45acp with 230gr bullets. His thinking was minor loads, heavier bullet, softer recoil, faster follow up shots.

That got me thinking so I loaded some of my usual 180gr bullets minor for my L10 G35 and it shot very soft. I think many shooters can shoot a 22rf faster/better due to milder recoil so a milder recoiling Limited gun might give me an edge? Made me wonder if removing my mag well, moving my mag holders/holster, switching to Pd might be for me too. Maybe a 200gr bullet loaded minor might be even better yet.

Then it dawned on me, why change classes at all. Just down load to minor and stay in L10... Scoring would be the same as Pd and I could use the same familiar rig/setup.

Anybody doing this?

[sirveyr]

It is more difficult to be competitive in LTD when shooting minor. I recall reading somewhere in the BEnoverse that "minor sucks".

[Jman]

Anybody doing this?

....minor sucks

[The Antichrome]

Speaking strictly for myself: I want to compete with the best shooters I can.

So, in the matches you shoot, are the better shooters in Production, or L10?

Or even just more shooters?

In most places, L10 is dead. It may be different where you are.

[G-ManBart]

I recently read about a Limited shooter thinking about moving to Pd and loading a 45acp with 230gr bullets. His thinking was minor loads, heavier bullet, softer recoil, faster follow up shots.

That got me thinking so I loaded some of my usual 180gr bullets minor for my L10 G35 and it shot very soft. I think many shooters can shoot a 22rf faster/better due to milder recoil so a milder recoiling Limited gun might give me an edge? Made me wonder if removing my mag well, moving my mag holders/holster, switching to Pd might be for me too. Maybe a 200gr bullet loaded minor might be even better yet.

Then it dawned on me, why change classes Divisions at all. Just down load to minor and stay in L10... Scoring would be the same as Pd and I could use the same familiar rig/setup.

Anybody doing this?

Limited-10 Minor makes the least sense of them all! At least in Limited Minor you get a few more rounds in the gun. In L-10 Minor you have zero advantage, and one huge disadvantage. People think they're going to shoot much faster splits with Minor than Major, and most people don't. They also think they're going to shoot way more Alphas...and most people don't.

Put it in perspective, Dave S. shot 53 B/C/D hits while winning Production at the 2010 Open Nationals...that's like 1/6th of all shots fired. First A (13th overall) Matthew H. had 78 B/C/D hits...roughly 1/4 of all shots fired. If that doesn't show that even really good shooters still shoot a lot of B/C/D hits when shooting Minor, I don't know what does.

If you're going to shoot Minor, might as well make it Production, where at least you're on an equal footing with everybody else. R,

[kamikaze1a]

Well...I'm not that competitive as it is anyway. Just wondering if it might allow me to move up the ladder if I could pickup some speed... I usually try to evaluate my score after each match...if I had not dropped that A here or few seconds faster there... I'm thinking in my case a softer shooting, possibly faster might make a diff. Maybe?

[kamikaze1a]

I guess I need to add, I'm in a 10rd mag state so we have no Limited class. And our club is small so we all shoot against each other for overall, mixed classes. Half are L10 and most of the balance are Pd, couple of Open and a SS or two in the mix. The Open shooters don't always prevail... A couple of M's, a few A class and then there is "us".

[twodownzero]

People think they're going to shoot much faster splits with Minor than Major, and most people don't. They also think they're going to shoot way more Alphas...and most people don't.

Damn straight!

I'm actually faster on the same classifiers, measurably, with my Limited Major gun than with my Production gun, even if eliminating all other variables!

[kamikaze1a]

Put it in perspective, Dave S. shot 53 B/C/D hits while winning Production at the 2010 Open Nationals...that's like 1/6th of all shots fired. First A (13th overall) Matthew H. had 78 B/C/D hits...roughly 1/4 of all shots fired. If that doesn't show that even really good shooters still shoot a lot of B/C/D hits when shooting Minor, I don't know what does.

If you're going to shoot Minor, might as well make it Production, where at least you're on an equal footing with everybody else. R,

While doing the numbers of my scores, I will run a few scenarios; if I dropped these A's but picked a few seconds my hf would have improved this much. I compare my scores to a higher finisher who had a mike or two but posted a faster time...causes me to think a softer recoil might help me move up... Maybe? As you said, MOST shooters. Might be worth a try?

[mlmiller1]

I guess I need to add, I'm in a 10rd mag state so we have no Limited class. And our club is small so we all shoot against each other for overall, mixed classes. Half are L10 and most of the balance are Pd, couple of Open and a SS or two in the mix. The Open shooters don't always prevail... A couple of M's, a few A class and then there is "us".

If you would like, you can take the scores from your last match & work out where you would have been had you been shooting minor. Potentially you can take each stage & see how many points you shot compared to how many were available & probably figure out how many were A's, etc. Then when you figure out how many a/b/c/d you shot, calculate the points you would have earned had you been shooting minor. IOW, earn one less pt for each b/c over what you got major, one less pt for each d over what you got. Then calculate how much faster your splits might be. Remember, draws, transitions, & reloads will all be the same time, you will only speed up on splits. How many splits were there at your last match, or another way to look at that, how many paper targets requiring two or more hits were there? Deduct that much time from the time you actually shot & divide that into the points & you will have your minor score hit factor. Compare that to what you actually got & see how you wind up. Remember, everyone else will still have the same score.

If you shot 100% A hits, this might make sense. If you shot roughly 80% or less A's, I would say you would lose position in the match. I would suggest, perhaps if you shot 100% A's, you need to speed up some. Just betting, if you shot 90% A's, & you sped up your splits a full tenth of a second( that would be a VERY big gain, in my opinion), it might be a wash to shoot minor. If your hits were much less than that, minor would cost you more than you gain. That is of course all connected to how your matches are designed, how many paper targets you shoot, how many A's you hit, & of course, how much faster you could go on splits minor than major.

Good luck & keep thinking. People that never consider other options & ways of doing things rarely improve their skills. This just might not be the right thing to change, though.

MLM

[kamikaze1a]

I guess I need to add, I'm in a 10rd mag state so we have no Limited class. And our club is small so we all shoot against each other for overall, mixed classes. Half are L10 and most of the balance are Pd, couple of Open and a SS or two in the mix. The Open shooters don't always prevail... A couple of M's, a few A class and then there is "us".

If you would like, you can take the scores from your last match & work out where you would have been had you been shooting minor. Potentially you can take each stage & see how many points you shot compared to how many were available & probably figure out how many were A's, etc. Then when you figure out how many a/b/c/d you shot, calculate the points you would have earned had you been shooting minor. IOW, earn one less pt for each b/c over what you got major, one less pt for each d over what you got. Then calculate how much faster your splits might be. Remember, draws, transitions, & reloads will all be the same time, you will only speed up on splits. How many splits were there at your last match, or another way to look at that, how many paper targets requiring two or more hits were there? Deduct that much time from the time you actually shot & divide that into the points & you will have your minor score hit factor. Compare that to what you actually got & see how you wind up. Remember, everyone else will still have the same score.

If you shot 100% A hits, this might make sense. If you shot roughly 80% or less A's, I would say you would lose position in the match. I would suggest, perhaps if you shot 100% A's, you need to speed up some. Just betting, if you shot 90% A's, & you sped up your splits a full tenth of a second( that would be a VERY big gain, in my opinion), it might be a wash to shoot minor. If your hits were much less than that, minor would cost you more than you gain. That is of course all connected to how your matches are designed, how many paper targets you shoot, how many A's you hit, & of course, how much faster you could go on splits minor than major.

Good luck & keep thinking. People that never consider other options & ways of doing things rarely improve their skills. This just might not be the right thing to change, though.

MLM

That make sense. How much faster would it be with less recoil? Same time reloading, transitioning and the draw...and lose another point for dropping an A. I think I need to load a bunch of minor rounds and run with my timer. Sounds less promising now...

[Chills1994]

well...I see the usual suspects are here bad mouthing shooting minor....again

I think the Gman is right. shooting minor in L10 makes the least sense of them all.

at least with me shooting Limited Minor I was getting 5 or 6 more rounds of 9mm in the mags versus shooting .40 with the same platform.

I will say this, chances are it's not splits that is going to win or lose a match for you. Heck! I'll go so far to say it is not even transitions either.

hit factor is your target points all added together divided by time. so if you are not collecting points quickly you are wrong. you need to minimize everything that is not shooting.

in a nutshell (not to be a smartey britches), shoot all A's quickly.

theoretically speaking, if you're getting all A's, major vs. minor doesn't matter.

theoretically.....

The only way you are going to learn some things is through your own experience .

go ahead, load up some .45's at minor PF and shoot a match or two and see how things shake out.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I tried the 45 minor thing and shot better with the power factor up higher. I liked the 9mm minor over the 45 minor. The minor loads I liked out of a gun that could be used for major and minor was in 40. I used 155 grain bullets for minor and 180 grain for major. I used the same powder charge for both bullet weights. The minor load was about 145PF and the major 171. I would shoot Production over Limited 10 minor if you have a Glock already. Thanks, Eric

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

It will be an interesting test for me. I am switching all loads to minor due to hand problems. Single stack minor with heavy 9MM bullets and Limited minor with a borrowed 9mm CZ. I am not competitive anyway but we will see what happens and if shooting minor will keep me shooting a few more years. After this thread, I may even try L10 AND Production with the CZ. 40 did a job on me.

[G-ManBart]

Put it in perspective, Dave S. shot 53 B/C/D hits while winning Production at the 2010 Open Nationals...that's like 1/6th of all shots fired. First A (13th overall) Matthew H. had 78 B/C/D hits...roughly 1/4 of all shots fired. If that doesn't show that even really good shooters still shoot a lot of B/C/D hits when shooting Minor, I don't know what does.

If you're going to shoot Minor, might as well make it Production, where at least you're on an equal footing with everybody else. R,

While doing the numbers of my scores, I will run a few scenarios; if I dropped these A's but picked a few seconds my hf would have improved this much. I compare my scores to a higher finisher who had a mike or two but posted a faster time...causes me to think a softer recoil might help me move up... Maybe? As you said, MOST shooters. Might be worth a try?

That's one way to go, but it does involved a hypothetical (what you would have done) versus proof (for lack of a better term). If you want to really know for sure, set up a couple of drills...nothing too involved. Try running something like a classifier five times with Minor and five times with Major (allow some practice rounds in between to get the feel for the different recoil), and see how the hit factor actually plays out for you.

I've seen many new shooters set up to shoot a classifier, and say "I'm going to shoot all Alphas", then the buzzer goes off, they shoot too fast, and throw C's and D's all over the place. Shooting C's just doesn't hurt much shooting Major, except on something like a really short 30pt stage/classifier. It probably depends on your personality, and how well you can force yourself to see what you need to see to shoot Alphas.

I haven't shot Minor out of my Limited or SS guns, so I can't really do a direct comparison, but my splits are a bit slower with a Production gun shooting Minor...go figure. I'm not sure if that's the lighter gun, the lighter ammo, the difference in triggers, or all of the above. I'm considering trying a heavier gun (CZ SP-01) to see if that changes things...part of the fun is trying things.

Let us know what you find if you do any sort of comparison. R,

[HI5-O]

Well...I'm not that competitive as it is anyway. Just wondering if it might allow me to move up the ladder if I could pickup some speed... I usually try to evaluate my score after each match...if I had not dropped that A here or few seconds faster there... I'm thinking in my case a softer shooting, possibly faster might make a diff. Maybe?

I'm not the fastest shooter (splits) in our club but I do well. I shave off time by minimizing any extra movements and setting up for the shot sooner and shooting on the move and get to moving sooner from different positions. Accuracy helps a lot. I see guys try to shoot fast splits all the time and their shots are all over the place including mikes. Work on draw to first accurate shot speed too.

Maybe we'll see you on Maui for next years Hawaii championships

[kamikaze1a]

Question, can you shoot a 22lr pistol faster/more accurately than a major loaded centerfire pistol?

I think for the average shooter the answer would be yes. When shooting my 22lr pistol, I have often thought to myself, "I sure wish I could shoot my L10 as fast and accurately as this 22". And when I look at SC match results, I see the 22rf times are always substantially lower for rf than Open, granted rf is started low ready and lighter pistols mean faster transitions, but I think part of the equation is the lower recoil. I know the question is not comparing major to 22 but I still wonder if lower recoil might give ME faster times. I have a 200gr, .401 mold scheduled to be completed end of this month that was meant to feed my 2011 but I just might try loading it for the shorter OAL Glock loads but in minor...

.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Just to add something

2010 A7 #2 slot of 14 was HDGUN from this forum shooting Single stack minor. He also came in first of 9 in the NE Sectional match.

Just sayin

[eerw]

If it was truly worth it, you would not be asking this question as many others would be doing it.

if you truly curious and a student of the game. set up the drills and compare. You experience may be different and this may work for you.

You will give away a bunch of points trying to chase a faster time, which is one you don't want to have to try and do. You may like the challenge it gives you and you may excel because of that.

[G-ManBart]

Just to add something

2010 A7 #2 slot of 14 was HDGUN from this forum shooting Single stack minor. He also came in first of 9 in the NE Sectional match.

Just sayin

That's anecdotal (cool, but anecdotal)...that he shot better than 12 people is all it proves. It's extremely likely he would have with Major and two fewer rounds as well. Comparing one person to another person doesn't mean anything because no two people are identically skilled. R,

[Flexmoney]

Well...I'm not that competitive as it is anyway. Just wondering if it might allow me to move up the ladder if I could pickup some speed... I usually try to evaluate my score after each match...if I had not dropped that A here or few seconds faster there... I'm thinking in my case a softer shooting, possibly faster might make a diff. Maybe?

No. Didn't you read the part that said "minor sucks"?

You won't gain any real amount time shooting minor. You will lose a real amount points.

If you want to shoot your G35 with minor loads, shoot it in Production. It works great with 180's and TiteGroup. (dropped the recoil spring weight down a bit from stock)

If you are going to shoot in L-10...shoot major.

And, if you want to get better...pick one and practice.

Seriously though...it sounds like you just need to do some work on your grip and stance.

[steel1212]

Anybody doing this?

....minor sucks

Just in case you didn't hear it the first time

[Chills1994]

kamikaze wrote:

I have a 200gr.401 mold scheduled to be completed end of this month that was meant to feed my 2011 but I just might try oading it for the shorter OAL Glock loads but in minor

where are you getting that made?

I am interested in such a mold.

I have a Lyman 4 banger mold that will drop a 175 grainer.

about the closest thing I could find for a 200 grainer is a boolit meant for the .41 Magnum. and IIRC, it was going to get sized down a lot.

as far as taking people's advice....

well, I had a MD/SC/master classed shooter who told me point blank that I couldn't get a .22 to run 100% at our twice a month steel plate matches, about 300 rounds each match.

I showed up with my Beretta conversion kit. He made it a point to squad me with him.

well....at least he got to see it run 100% in person then.

now I reckon that at least half the shooters who show up to our steel matches shoot a .22...way back when I used to be maybe the only one.

so my point is, try it! you are only going to learn through experimenting with it.

[spanky]

In production, everyone is minor

In l10, only you are.

[kamikaze1a]

kamikaze wrote:

I have a 200gr.401 mold scheduled to be completed end of this month that was meant to feed my 2011 but I just might try oading it for the shorter OAL Glock loads but in minor

where are you getting that made?

I am interested in such a mold.

I have a Lyman 4 banger mold that will drop a 175 grainer.

about the closest thing I could find for a 200 grainer is a boolit meant for the .41 Magnum. and IIRC, it was going to get sized down a lot.

as far as taking people's advice....

well, I had a MD/SC/master classed shooter who told me point blank that I couldn't get a .22 to run 100% at our twice a month steel plate matches, about 300 rounds each match.

I showed up with my Beretta conversion kit. He made it a point to squad me with him.

well....at least he got to see it run 100% in person then.

now I reckon that at least half the shooters who show up to our steel matches shoot a .22...way back when I used to be maybe the only one.

so my point is, try it! you are only going to learn through experimenting with it.

Well, you just missed getting in on the buy. A couple of us have been trying to get enough orders to get this mold done for over a year. The buy got hijacked by rifle shooters wanting a crimp groove twice but this time we stated right from the start, no groove. The manufacturer, NOE, sometimes make an extra mold or two so pm me if you are interested in flying standby...