Why am I loading .223 again?

[twodownzero]

So when my finals are over (1 left) I keep thinking I'm going to go home and crank out a bunch of ammo so I have it to shoot.

Then I discovered this:

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/products/223--5.56x45-Ammo-55gr-FMJ-Wolf-Performance-1000-Round-Case.html

Wolf ammo at 2006 prices. Why am I reloading again?

It's rare for me to ever think that reloading doesn't pay off...but I'm starting to think that once you run the numbers on what components are costing now, it makes no sense to load .223 blasting ammo.

Match ammo, sure, but I haven't shot 200 rounds of that in the last 5 years (I don't shoot enough rifle, unfortunately, and if I do, I shoot .308).

Thoughts?

Edited December 16, 2010 by twodownzero

[mscott]

Thoughts?

I agree. Doing the math on 1k rounds I figure $75 for bullets, $30 for primers, and $65 for powder. Without counting brass it's pretty close to even. Now throw on $60 for brass and however many hours of time and you have your answer. I like having ammo I know shoots really well in my rifle, but for under 100 yard cardboard it's not necessary.

[Religious Shooter]

Currently, Wolf ammo has steel in the projectile.

You should check with the MD of the match you plan to shoot and see if it is OK with them.

Many matches won't let you use it because the steel is considered a potential fire hazard. Many ranges won't let you use it.

[twodownzero]

Thoughts?

I agree. Doing the math on 1k rounds I figure $75 for bullets, $30 for primers, and $65 for powder. Without counting brass it's pretty close to even. Now throw on $60 for brass and however many hours of time and you have your answer. I like having ammo I know shoots really well in my rifle, but for under 100 yard cardboard it's not necessary.

I agree on all points. I love MY ammo. But for blasting up close, as you pointed out, it's sometimes not important.

Currently, Wolf ammo has steel in the projectile.

You should check with the MD of the match you plan to shoot and see if it is OK with them.

Many matches won't let you use it because the steel is considered a potential fire hazard. Many ranges won't let you use it.

I've never been to one where it mattered. But I do have the materials to load a few thousand rounds anyway.

[Graham Smith]

I looked at this ammo and won't buy it because the jacket is bi-metal - that is it's laminated copper and steel. If you want this for training ammo and are only shooting paper, then I see no problem, but if you are shooting steel then take care because some places won't allow it.

I have a separate thread on Training Ammunition. Look over there for some alternatives.

[Religious Shooter]

I've never been to one where it mattered. But I do have the materials to load a few thousand rounds anyway.

Did you specifically ask the presenters of the match or the range officers wether you can or can't shoot steel jacketed ammo?

[seabee23]

Thoughts?

I agree. Doing the math on 1k rounds I figure $75 for bullets, $30 for primers, and $65 for powder. Without counting brass it's pretty close to even. Now throw on $60 for brass and however many hours of time and you have your answer. I like having ammo I know shoots really well in my rifle, but for under 100 yard cardboard it's not necessary.

[Corey]

I've never been to one where it mattered. But I do have the materials to load a few thousand rounds anyway.

Did you specifically ask the presenters of the match or the range officers wether you can or can't shoot steel jacketed ammo?

Those can screw up steel plates pretty fast. thats why most ranges dont lie them. I personally see no reason why you can blast paper with them tho.

As for the topic, im planning getting some good match loads for any distance stuff as well as some varmint loads. for some local 3guns and blaasting, I may just stick with cheapo factory stuff. its plenty accurate for those purposes

[DanielW]

Those can screw up steel plates pretty fast. thats why most ranges dont lie them. I personally see no reason why you can blast paper with them tho.

It is my understanding that the bimetal jacketed stuff is no more likely to screw up steel than copper. After shooting some steel targets of my own, this certainly seems to bear true; damage/pitting is no worse than copper jacketed ammo. After all, these rounds do still have a full lead core, unlike the steel penetrator stuff (i.e. SS109 M855), and the steel used is mild steel. But some places just don't like the very mention of the word "steel" and associate bimetal jacket ammo with the penetrator steel cored stuff anyway and disallow it.

However - the bimetal jacketed ammo is very prone to giving off an impressive shower of sparks, (especially noticeable on an indoor range or in low light), which is where the fire hazard concern comes from.

Edit - back on the topic....yep, the steel stuff is good'n'cheap again; best to save your own loads for the precision stuff

Edited December 16, 2010 by DanielW

[rstandley]

I don't run wolf ammo, paying list price for components it runs $170 per thousand. I still have some older stuff, It cost me about $140. per thousand. A case of lake city runs about $400. I'll still reload my rounds.

[Chills1994]

a full size steel (42") popper made with for real AR400/450/500 plate is $275...each.

I am ASSuming that a self-resetting target of some sort would be even more expensive.

I would hate to skrimp on ammo only to end up buying a club's 4 or 5 poppers or self-resetting targets at $275 a pop.

but besides that...I am already invested in a progressive press, brass, primers, powder and bullets.

call it "sunk cost" just like Congress does with any program...."oh, well, that new submarine program is $4 billion over budget already...might as well spend another $2 billion to get it done" versus just stopping the program right then when they realized it was 4B over budget.

[Supermoto]

I have started buying Tula 62gr HP. Its the same price is what I can load it for. I recently shot a rifle match that was 25 yards and in, no steel. It was perfect for that. The range I practice at is 25 yards,, when I'm not practicing with a .22lr, I use Tula. I save the handloads for a match with steel

[Chills1994]

I also have a an ACOG with a BDC reticle. I would rather tailor my handloads to jive up with the 300, 400 and so on tic marks in my scope.

not to mention that if my girlfriend finds out that I have spent any more money on gun stuff this close to Christmas, she might just kill me.

[twodownzero]

I've never been to one where it mattered. But I do have the materials to load a few thousand rounds anyway.

Did you specifically ask the presenters of the match or the range officers wether you can or can't shoot steel jacketed ammo?

No, I didn't. I've never shot at steel with Wolf ammo. I haven't had any for a long time because I've been using my handloads. About 4-5 years ago, though, I used Wolf a lot, before I got my press. I would imagine nobody really cares if you shoot their paper targets with Wolf.

The only time I had steel in a USPSA multi-gun match, I used M193 bullets (handloaded).

I also have a an ACOG with a BDC reticle. I would rather tailor my handloads to jive up with the 300, 400 and so on tic marks in my scope.

not to mention that if my girlfriend finds out that I have spent any more money on gun stuff this close to Christmas, she might just kill me.

I wouldn't shoot 3-400 yards with any factory ammo, although I'm sure the expensive stuff would work fine.

Maybe I just long for the days when you could buy M193 bullets for $33 a thou like I used to, and then it would be easy to reject $180 a thou Wolf ammo for blasting at least.

I wondering now if I shouldn't just buy match bullets to handload. Sure, it adds to the cost, but the overall value of loading match ammo with good bullets is greater than loading cheap ammo where the savings are less.

Edited December 16, 2010 by twodownzero

[GentlemanJim]

IMHO

The wolf is ok in nato spec chambers with chrome bores

I would not shoot it in a high$$ match barrel...if you care about it that is

Pretty good to put away for a rainy day...when anything that will go bang, is good enough

Jim

[twodownzero]

I actually don't think I'm going to end up ordering any. I hope the guys on here found that link useful.

I think even if I had to pay more to load my own ammo, I still would. Rifle ammo is expensive no matter what...so I might as well make a decent product.

I'm still considering buying a thousand just to put aside for local matches and stuff, when I want to save my stash of handloads.

Edited December 16, 2010 by twodownzero

[RH45]

I bought a couple of cases of Wolf, a few years ago. I've never chronoed it, but, it feels really weak. The only time I ever use it is on wide open paper, less than 50 yards.

[twodownzero]

Oh it's definitely weak. Even my plinking load of 25 grains of H335 with a 55 grain bullet has more velocity than Wolf.

I have chronoed it and IIRC it's about 200 fps less than my plinking load.

Edited December 17, 2010 by twodownzero

[jaredr]

my own experience with wolf is that it's 2900 fps out of my 16" carbine barrel. the loss of around 200-250 fps doesn't make much difference to me at 100 yards for practice, i'm not concerned about taking down falling steel for score if it's just me out on the range. problem for me was I was regularly seeing 3-4" groups off a bench with wolf 55gr fmj. Practicing 50 yd hoser stages that kind of accuracy is fine, but it hurts when the target is an MGM 6" autopopper and your trying to get hits from field positions (kneeling, sitting, etc). I can still reload hornady 55gr ball loads for less than what I can buy wolf, and without doing anything more than basic case prep during loading I can get 1-1.5" (as long as my barrel isn't shot out I'll stick with reloading.

[KentG]

I have plenty of blasting milsurp and lakecity BUT Im not willing to lay out big bucks for match quality stuff for distance shots so I am now starting to load 69gr stuff. The Dillon parts are inbound, the dies are here and some of the supplies are on the way. Should be cranking out rounds in a few weeks. No hurry at this point for next season.

I WILL NOT, NO HOW, NO WAY, shoot any kind of steel cased ammo much less steel cored ammo in any gun I pay for. If someone GIVES me the firearms oh well. I dont care what some say about it not being a big deal. Not to mention the steel core on steel targets.

[Religious Shooter]

Current wolf is lead core with some steel in the jacket.

Given the lead core and lower velocity it does about the same damage to steel plates as regular FMJ. IMHO, when it's cool and not too dry, matches and ranges should allow it.

I attend one particular local 3 gun match just because they allow Wolf.

[Chills1994]

at my "home club" we set up on saturdays. then on sundays we shoot the actual USPSA pistol matches.

well, sometime between about noon on Saturday and 7 AM Sunday some @$$hat shot one of our steel poppers with a centerfire rifle.

I am assuming steel core ammo, most likely an AK.

these poppers came from Max Davidson ... www.gunsteel.com

the plate is something AR-ish.

it still got cratered good enough that we had to pull the stakes up and replace it with another popper.

I hope the idiot who did got a face full of backsplatter.

our plates for the steel challenge like matches are stored outside but inside an anchor chain cage. some "idjut" tried to shoot the pad lock off. the lock was so boogered up we had to take a right angle grinder to the shackle to cut it off.

idjuts!

[Raindog]

The local matches I shoot use a magnet. Wolf fails everytime, though I'm not sure it's not because of the steel case. Anyway, it's a no go around here.

[DanielW]

The local matches I shoot use a magnet. Wolf fails everytime, though I'm not sure it's not because of the steel case. Anyway, it's a no go around here.

Yeah, the bullet itself would fail the magnet test, as the "bimetal" jacket is superthin copperwashed soft steel. As I mentioned earlier though - this is over a lead core, and the rounds do no more damage than any regular FMJ. Big difference between bimetal jackets and steel cores.....but rules is rules at some places; and it is their prerogative at the end of the day.

Chills1994 - I'd hazard a guess that the a$$hat who wrecked your steel targets was shooting a rifle at them at short range. After steel core ammo, velocity is the butt chewer of steel targets. At short range any hi velocity round will make a mess of steel (not to mention its hazardous.

We all seem to be OT here, but still interested, so I figured I'd throw this link in to another board which is a good discussion of the effects (or rather, lack of effects) of Russian bimetal stuff on steel targets, and validity of the magnet test - note posts #8 and #13 are actually by a quality steel target manufacturer, so straight from the horses mouth, as it were:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=27860

[Chills1994]

huh?!

I went to that saiga forums link.

way back when I made my own steel plates out of mild A36 steel 3/8 plate. I set one up at 100 yards. then I shot at it with a .223 AR and a .30-06 bolt action. while neither of them penetrated clean through, they were cratered really well.

cratered just like that popper was, which was probably shot at 25 yards or less.

I didn't know there was such a thing as AR550 steel...good grief! how much does that cost a sheet.?!

so now I am left wondering "why go with AR steel for pistol poppers?" (shrugs shoulders)

I had shot at one of Max Davidson's self-resetting sniper targets with my AR at 200 yards. it didn't even scratch it.

so I am guessing my .223 pro-jo's had dropped below that magical 3,000 fps number that the guy in the saiga forums wrote about.