Does USPSA need a classification system for multi-gun?

[Bryan 45]

I thought I'd put it here to avoid derailing the Top Shot #10 discussion.

Just my opinions:

USPSA doesn't need to devise a classifier system for anything else. Why burden multigun with rewarding someone for high not-as-good-as-the-winner-but-better-than-some-of-the-other-losers-of-similar-skill?

Signed- a low B class shooter according to USPSA.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Bryan 45

[SinistralRifleman]

How would this even work?

Classifiers for each gun that are then averaged together?

I think this would in effect mandate that each gun was exactly 33% of the match.

[abn-rgr]

This is why I shoot Outlaw.........

Signed-Another lowly B class shooter who cant even RO a USPSA 3 Gun Match.

[M ammo]

This is why Outlaw 3 Gun,,, Rules!

Reading a book of rules is work.

When Shooting is the fun, I show up to do, not read more rules,,

Just my 2 cents,,

Jim M ammo

[Charles Bond]

I thought I'd put it here to avoid derailing the Top Shot #10 discussion.

Just my opinions:

USPSA doesn't need to devise a classifier system for anything else. Why burden multigun with rewarding someone for high not-as-good-as-the-winner-but-better-than-some-of-the-other-losers-of-similar-skill?

Signed- a low B class shooter according to USPSA.

Because it gives us something to sell the sport.

I am perfectly comfortable with the fact that most existing 3 gunners or multigunners are not in favor of this. But without it we lose a tool to expand USPSA membership. It is no accident that IDPA and even sporting clays shooters have classifications. They have them because it sells their sports and gives members a reason to join.

My take is that we should classify shotgun and we should classify rifle. To do so would promote more shooting at more ranges since their would be demand for existing members to become classified. It would also provide a method for shooters who have no interest in pistol to get involved in USPSA. As it stands right now, if you have no pistol classification shooting a USPSA match means you are an "U". My thought is that there are a lot more folks with rifles than there are folks with pistols who want to shoot matches. And I believe there are more shotguns than both of the others put together. The room for growth here is exceptional.

What does growth mean to an existing shooter like yourself? It means costs are spread over more shooters so your dues are not likely to increase. It means more matches, more sponsors, a better Front Sight. No one would argue that by adding production division that USPSA failed to do the right thing. The same concept applies here. The old saying that "a rising tide raises all boats" becomes meaningful.

So how would we then end up with a multigun classification? Simply by averaging the classifications of all weapons. By doing so there would be a classification method that would work for a pistol/shotgun match, rifle/shotgun match, etc.

Keep in mind that this is really not about what is best for 3 gun matches generally but rather what improves USPSA. My thought is that it would be good for both since it would bring more shooters to the sport but the bottom line is improving the leader in the action shooting sports and whether you love it or hate it, that is USPSA.

Lastly, is there not a market for a shooter to say they have reached MASTER class in pistol, rifle and shotgun? We get all excited when we reach that status in more than one handgun division. Being able to achieve it in more than one weapons system will tell us more about who is truly a TOP SHOT than any reality TV show.

[mpeltier]

I thought I'd put it here to avoid derailing the Top Shot #10 discussion.

Just my opinions:

USPSA doesn't need to devise a classifier system for anything else. Why burden multigun with rewarding someone for high not-as-good-as-the-winner-but-better-than-some-of-the-other-losers-of-similar-skill?

Signed- a low B class shooter according to USPSA.

Because it gives us something to sell the sport.

I am perfectly comfortable with the fact that most existing 3 gunners or multigunners are not in favor of this. But without it we lose a tool to expand USPSA membership. It is no accident that IDPA and even sporting clays shooters have classifications. They have them because it sells their sports and gives members a reason to join.

My take is that we should classify shotgun and we should classify rifle. To do so would promote more shooting at more ranges since their would be demand for existing members to become classified. It would also provide a method for shooters who have no interest in pistol to get involved in USPSA. As it stands right now, if you have no pistol classification shooting a USPSA match means you are an "U". My thought is that there are a lot more folks with rifles than there are folks with pistols who want to shoot matches. And I believe there are more shotguns than both of the others put together. The room for growth here is exceptional.

What does growth mean to an existing shooter like yourself? It means costs are spread over more shooters so your dues are not likely to increase. It means more matches, more sponsors, a better Front Sight. No one would argue that by adding production division that USPSA failed to do the right thing. The same concept applies here. The old saying that "a rising tide raises all boats" becomes meaningful.

So how would we then end up with a multigun classification? Simply by averaging the classifications of all weapons. By doing so there would be a classification method that would work for a pistol/shotgun match, rifle/shotgun match, etc.

Keep in mind that this is really not about what is best for 3 gun matches generally but rather what improves USPSA. My thought is that it would be good for both since it would bring more shooters to the sport but the bottom line is improving the leader in the action shooting sports and whether you love it or hate it, that is USPSA.

Lastly, is there not a market for a shooter to say they have reached MASTER class in pistol, rifle and shotgun? We get all excited when we reach that status in more than one handgun division. Being able to achieve it in more than one weapons system will tell us more about who is truly a TOP SHOT than any reality TV show.

Well I ain't buyin it.

Its certainly not what sold me on the sport, and in fact has been my only turn off to the sport.

[MarkCO]

Because it gives us something to sell the sport.

Keep in mind that this is really not about what is best for 3 gun matches generally but rather what improves USPSA.

Wow, I tried to write a response to thsoe two statements, but I am not sure it is possible...still shocked.

[bigbrowndog]

Mark I agree with your WOW,and raise you a HOLY FREEKIN CRAP OF A WOW, for the second statement.

it probably explains much of why the association, can't assemble a decent nationals when what it has to work with makes statements such as that.

trapr

[LChico]

Mark I agree with your WOW,and raise you a HOLY FREEKIN CRAP OF A WOW, for the second statement.

it probably explains much of why the association, can't assemble a decent nationals when what it has to work with makes statements such as that.

trapr

Myopia & one person's opinion. Those of us who are actually involved in the USPSA Multi-gun Nationals are doing our best to eliminate some of the problems that hampered previous USPSA MG Nationals, and to improve the standing of the match in the eyes of the 3 gun community. Please do not let one person (who has not even attended the USPSA MG Nationals in recent years and does not plan to attend this year) de-rail all the hard work that is being done to improve the USPSA MG Nationals.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 USPSA Multi-gun Nationals Statistician

Edited August 16, 2010 by LChico

[SinistralRifleman]

Feelings aside how would this classification system work? Logically I am having a hard time seeing how you could have a classification system that would work and still have a balanced class for any match

Case A:

Classifiers for all 3 guns, percentages are averaged together to give an over all skill classification. Use the existing percentage ranges for classes

Case B:

percentages are added together to give the shooter points. Points ranges are established for different classifications

The problem I see with either are what if the match doesn't have a long range stage that dropped the A class pistol shooter down to a B or C Class 3 gunner? If the same skill sets aren't always tested every match the classifications really mean nothing and results will not be consistent.

[ken hebert]

*off topic (sorry, but dangit I gotta try)*Linda, and those others who are involved: we appreciate your efforts to improve MG nats... if y'all are heeding suggestions, here's a winner--> take note of what matches are being well attended and why. what is the format? round count? scoring system? location? There is an underlying reason that SMM3G, BRM3G, Ironman, RM3G, FNH3G, ect SELL OUT every year and MG Nats doesn't. Its not for the efforts of the people who graciously put on and work the match for the shooters, no, we certainly appreciate that very much.

back on topic.

Does USPSA need a classification system for multigun? Gut reaction is NO. Heads up seems to be working very well in outlaw matches.

But, for the sake of the discussion, if you were going to do it...

1) Would you make it like the current classification system where if you attained M or GM with one weapon you were automatically A or M with the others?

2) different geographical areas dont have access to longer ranges. reduced size targets to simulate range? (rifle)

3) different geographical areas may have restrictions on how they may engage targets. some ranges may not allow the lattitude that others do. I know that my home range, until recently, didnt allow steel to be shot on the rifle range.

4) how to standardize flying targets (clays) across the board. face it, even at MG nats last year there were poppers/flippers. this is a skill set in use in the sport, but the flippers at LaRue arent the same as the ones at Rockcastle as at Mesa, ect. same can be said about automated bird throwers: who's to say mine are throwing as fast as yours...?

5) calibration of rifle steel. Whats the standard? (Wolf out of a 16" carbine?) just a general statement, not there to provoke specific responses so PLEASE lets not go there again. (in memory of all the crap that came after stg 1 of MG nats '09)

I could go on more, but I think you get the idea. this would be a LARGE undertaking to lay the groundwork, and if it was done would the input be worth rewards?

[bigbrowndog]

Linda I should have prefaced the comment with "the recent past attempts" I obviously am not aware of the efforts currently going on, nor did I intend to say that the laborers, or soldiers of the recent past matches did not work their butts off trying to accomplish a good match. only that with some mgmt. having those ideas, its understandable how difficult it would be to accomplish much of anything substantial.

Trapr

[steel1212]

Let me humbly put my .02 in. Take this for what its worth coming from mainly a pistol shooter. I'm classified in USPSA with my pistol. When I go to multigun matches that use that same classification I'm now shooting a GM pistol and a B level shotgun/Rifle (comparatively speaking). I think if your going to use the pistol classifications at all you have to have some kind of measure for the rifle and shotgun and they have to be averaged, not if your GM in one your M in the other 2. I say this because, and I'm not complaining just making a statement, pretty much every 3 gun match I've been to, and its not many, I've been beaten by some one several classes below me because they don't shoot a lot of USPSA matches but shoot a ton of 3 gun matches. Hey thats fine, I'm a big boy I can handle it but it just doesn't work well in the classification system thing.

One more point. Look at it from the new shooter aspect. If you have a brand spanking new shooter to 3 gun, that is very competitive, and tell him yeah take your stock 1100, stock stag arms with aimpoint, and stock glock and you'll be shooting heads up against Taran Butler. That might put some people off. You tell them them, no don't worry after a couple matches you'll be classified and just shooting against D class shooters in your skill level. Just something to think about.

Again, I'm not a big 3 gunner, I do like shooting it when I can though as its very enjoyable. I can just see both sides of the argument.

[Merlin Orr]

hey...Give them a chance. Let USPSA do what they want with THEIR 3 Gun rules and classification system.

At least we are not seeing the rules of USPSA forced onto/into other (read All) 3 gun matches as has been previously suggested by some USPSA advocates.

There are some people in USPSA who really know a lot about 3 Gun.. Thanks L.C.

USPSA has the chance to come up with some good rules. If they do they will see increased participation. If the rules are bullshit then it will continue to be the bastard stepchild of 3 Gun competitions.

At least now there is another major organization with even worse rules.....

[P.E. Kelley]

Mark I agree with your WOW,and raise you a HOLY FREEKIN CRAP OF A WOW, for the second statement.

it probably explains much of why the association, can't assemble a decent nationals when what it has to work with makes statements such as that.

trapr

Myopia & one person's opinion. Those of us who are actually involved in the USPSA Multi-gun Nationals are doing our best to eliminate some of the problems that hampered previous USPSA MG Nationals, and to improve the standing of the match in the eyes of the 3 gun community. Please do not let one person (who has not even attended the USPSA MG Nationals in recent years and does not plan to attend this year) de-rail all the hard work that is being done to improve the USPSA MG Nationals.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 USPSA Multi-gun Nationals Statistician

Thank you Linda!!!

USPSA is Listening!!!

As evidenced by the most recent rules change to both Heavy Metal Limited by welcoming any L-10 pistol in 45ACP and and in Limited (Standard Rifle) allowing any

fixed one power optic to be added to ones stick!

Yes others (the Okie's at Reneck Tactical) paved the way for that change, but the USPSA has adapted and adopted!

Let not my comments be attributed to that of a "fanboy" as I too have had my problems with Multigun and the USPSA but with our support

things can and do change for the good if you participate.

Yours in Sport

Patrick

[HS101]

* My humble opinion *

I like shooting heads up. If I am the 55th best shooter out of 100, I should be the 55th to the prize table. If you notice, there isn't any sandbagging, or accusations of sandbagging, in 3 gun.

Actual place at a match seems to be a very fair and accurate form of classification...

[J.Schmitt]

I'd be against it.

I usually have the chance to shoot 1 - 3 gun match per month. (until DPMS just got shut down).

I would not want to spend additional match time and ammo trying to shoot some type of classifier. On our normal 1 day matches difficult stages are set up in hopes of assisting us in raising our own bars for when the big matches are attended. I spend enough time shooting USPSA weekday matches that have classifiers every other week. Just not enough time to shoot classifiers for 2 other guns.

Something to think about. If passed would a person have to have the classifications to attend a multi-gun Nationals in the future. Some locations only have Outlaw matches available.

Opinion of 1

Jay

[Bryan 45]

I didn't intend for this to be another "what is wrong w/ USPSA MG" discussion. Sorry it seems that way. It sounds like last years Nationals MG was a huge success and considering the people sweating and bleeding over this years match I'm sure it will be the same way. Thank you to all that put forth the effort. I just wish I could get to Vegas to experience it.

I don't want to even get started on the nightmare that shooting rifle/shotgun classifiers would create from set-up to scoring. Not to mention that classifiers are most frequently the most boring stages of a pistol match.....

I just have never understood why the class system exists. Maybe I live in my own little world, but how am I suppose to feel good about my performance because I beat everyone in my class even though there are 50 names ahead of mine in the finals? If I am pleased with my performance and shot every stage to the best of my ability, whomever is ahead of me in the finals deserves it because they are a better shooter than I- regardless of class. Of course, I've never shot a match in which I've been pleased with all my stages or to the best of my ability!

[Charles Bond]

Keep in mind the following:

1. My view is just my view and reasonable minds can certainly differ on this subject.

2. USPSA is a business and its business is practical shooting. Currently it is under serving or failing to serve a significant group of shooters who do not choose to engage in pistol matches.

3. The success of classifications is demonstrated by the business model of not only USPSA but other organizations involved in the shooting sports all of which are much larger than USPSA.

4. Nothing keeps anyone at any match from shooting heads up. If you do not desire to be classified, no one is going to make you be so and no one is going to make you join USPSA.

5. This has nothing at all to do with the USPSA National MG. If this idea is so meaningless, someone let me know why the match is not full with a waiting list?

6. Many of those posting here are not supportive of USPSA's MG efforts. I understand the idea of every match adopting its own rules just as I understand the idea of every state setting its own speed limits. That works OK traveling from town to town within a state but it bites you every time on a cross country interstate trip.

7. And if the idea of more matches with more shooters and more sponsors is not appealing to anyone who desires to be an outlaw, being devoted to only outlaw matches is your choice.

8. There is value in 3 Gun Nation since FN has raised the awareness of MG shooting by stepping up big time. But at the end of the day it is a business question that is made based on economic returns. Unless USPSA and others jump in and make real efforts to attract more shooters to the sport which increases the economic return for FN and others like it, what they started this year will vanish. And absent classifications it is going to be mighty hard to attract an average 50 year old male who has kids out of the house and has the time and money to afford 3 gun shooting to pick us all the items he needs and travel to distant places and pay an entry fee so that one of the present shooting posse can have first pick at the prize table.

9. Having classifications does not affect prize tables whatsoever. Matches can award prizes any way they desire.

10. Unless USPSA moves in this direction and uses its clout and network of local clubs and sectional and area leadership, overall particiaption in 3 gun is not going to grow to the extent that it could simply because the organization is not offering anything to those who do not want to shoot a pistol. For sure there are clubs that will not or could not do it now due to range limitations or other problems but that exists now with indoor clubs where one can not shoot a classifier with steel, have magazines with more than 10 rounds, etc.

It might not be next year or even in 5 years, but MG is evolving. It will evolve into a sport that has a governing organization. That can be USPSA or it can be IDPA or it can be an organization that is yet to exist. No one is saying that USPSA is perfect but it is one where the members elect the decsion makers and one where the staff strives to serve its membership. Nope it is not perfect but it is less imperfect than its rivals.

Charles Bond

[gose]

Personally, I'm not much for the handgun classification system either and wouldnt mind it going away, so no, I dont want to see a multigun one. Boring classification stages is NOT what USPSA multigun and the Nationals need...

And if we look at IPSC, ICS is pretty much unused, yet IPSC seems to be holding it's own against IDPA, Bianchi and other action sports in other countries/regions.

Edited August 17, 2010 by gose

[MarkCO]

2. USPSA is a business and its business is practical shooting. Currently it is under serving or failing to serve a significant group of shooters who do not choose to engage in pistol matches.

3. The success of classifications is demonstrated by the business model of not only USPSA but other organizations involved in the shooting sports all of which are much larger than USPSA.

4. Nothing keeps anyone at any match from shooting heads up. If you do not desire to be classified, no one is going to make you be so and no one is going to make you join USPSA.

5. This has nothing at all to do with the USPSA National MG. If this idea is so meaningless, someone let me know why the match is not full with a waiting list?

6. Many of those posting here are not supportive of USPSA's MG efforts. I understand the idea of every match adopting its own rules just as I understand the idea of every state setting its own speed limits. That works OK traveling from town to town within a state but it bites you every time on a cross country interstate trip.

7. And if the idea of more matches with more shooters and more sponsors is not appealing to anyone who desires to be an outlaw, being devoted to only outlaw matches is your choice.

8. There is value in 3 Gun Nation since FN has raised the awareness of MG shooting by stepping up big time. But at the end of the day it is a business question that is made based on economic returns. Unless USPSA and others jump in and make real efforts to attract more shooters to the sport which increases the economic return for FN and others like it, what they started this year will vanish. And absent classifications it is going to be mighty hard to attract an average 50 year old male who has kids out of the house and has the time and money to afford 3 gun shooting to pick us all the items he needs and travel to distant places and pay an entry fee so that one of the present shooting posse can have first pick at the prize table.

9. Having classifications does not affect prize tables whatsoever. Matches can award prizes any way they desire.

10. Unless USPSA moves in this direction and uses its clout and network of local clubs and sectional and area leadership, overall particiaption in 3 gun is not going to grow to the extent that it could simply because the organization is not offering anything to those who do not want to shoot a pistol. For sure there are clubs that will not or could not do it now due to range limitations or other problems but that exists now with indoor clubs where one can not shoot a classifier with steel, have magazines with more than 10 rounds, etc.

Charles Bond

Okay, something I can respond to with some semblence of discussion.

2. USPSA is a very solid organization in the realm of practical PISTOL shooting. I shoot it more often than 3 gun, and I enjoy most aspects of it. There are some aspects I do not like, but they would be off topic. There are a LOT of business models out there where a company had a solid product and tried to divest into different markets and or products and those ventures ended up being the downfall of the company. The reason outlaw matches have flourished is precisely because of the diversity! Trying to pull it together could spell disaster for USPSA, which, as a member, I would not support. Show us a good business model that will be accepted by 3-gunners (instead of saying you don't care) and then you might garner some support.

3. There are business models however that fly in direct opposition to your assertions. The top 15 guys in the NASCAR Cup series take 85% of the prize money and win all of the races, but the rest keep coming. The chance at glory to win is too sweet to pass up. This is a basic human desire, to go head to head against the best. What you have failed to understand is that there are many types of shooters, some who thrive on USPSA's style, others who thrive on outlaw 3gun type of matches. To try and blend them...disaster.

4. Have you read the rulebook lately (App A1)? I have, just took my CRO exam. You have to be a member of USPSA to shoot everything but a level 1 match. So, no, one can't go run against the GMs at nationals and win, or even lose. You did say "any" match, and that statement is patently wrong.

5. The match has, by most accounts, been improving. However, it is not full because of many of these same issues. The sponsors (in the past) were treated like crap, and so they do not support the match. Lose the sponsors, lose the shooters. Pretty plain and simple. A match director who states ROs can't shoot the match due to a "conflict of interest" and then goes on to shoot the match might be another little issue to be solved and bring in some more shooters. Many of the shooters I know that are going are going ONLY because of the 3GN shoot-off, otherwise, they would pass.

6. Personally, I am suportive of the efforts, provided it is done in a logical manner with acknowledgement that that the shooters are the customer. Saying you don't care what 3-gunners want is like putting up the old sign that says "Complaints...Take a number" with a "1" hanging off the pin on the grenade.

7. What the heck are you talking about. Several of the outlaw matches had sponsors calling and asking to sponsor this year. The tables were phenominal. The sponsors SUPPORT the outlaw matches, in part because USPSA has treated them so poorly and 3 gunners treat them so well! I have direct contact with several sponsors and their wishes are NOT being addressed. I support those who support the sport and it is reflected in the guns I shoot and the product I buy. I will not buy product from companies who don't support the sport when their competitors do.

8. 3GN saw the tremendous growth in the fastest growing sport in shooting and jumped on the bandwagon. They might have been jostled by a few bumps here and there, but they are learning, and I for one am very glad to have them on the same bandwagon. SAME with the NRA who has jumped into three gun and offered tremendous support, and sanctioning for many (ever increasing) outlaw matches, specifically without trying to take over.

9. You are probably correct.

10. Wow again. 3gun is the fastest growing sport in the action firearms segment. USPSA certainly had a chance at 3 gun, but missed out and other organizations (and sponsors) have seen fit to move in and partner with the outlaw matches and 3 gunners, not try and control them. USPSA can offer support and help, but (IMHO) they are too late to try and take supreme control and to do so will hurt both 3gun and USPSA. If USPSA follows a path consistent with your ideas and direcitves, it WILL fail. On the other hand, working WITH the outlaw matches and the other organizations, supporting the sponsors and caring about the 3gun shooters, that is a path to success for all.

Personally, I say no to rifle and shotgun classifications. They are fine in pistol, but, as Ken pointed out, there are too many variables in 3gun. My classification is comparing myself directly to the best. This year, I picked up 7% on the best 3 gun shooter, my reward is to know I improved 7% MORE than he did. That is a true measure of success. Next year, I want another 10%, that keeps me coming back. Plus, as another lowly B class USPSA shooter, I can walk a 3 gun prize table and get twice the match fee back in prizes on a regular basis. At nationals, maybe a sticker...

[bigbrowndog]

let me also add, that from what I've heard last years MG nationals was the best in years. I've personally not been to a MG nationals simply because of the lack of good news from people whose opinion I respect, these same people had high marks for the last event and I hope that this years event will prove to be even better, if it is I will make a point of attending the following year.

As for the association putting in an effort to improve or increase participation. the move to allow optics in Limited is definitely a good one, as is listening to HM shooters and doing what we want done to increase numbers. There are members on the BoD that want to do the right thing, and I applaud their efforts they are going against some that simply refuse to listen or change for whatever reason. I am aware of some of the goings on and know who is up for change and who is 2 faced. if the association is to continue with its history regarding 3 gun/multigun it will fail, however with the efforts of a few good people it can change and become just a big and well received in multigun as it is in pistol.

Personally, I feel a classification system has no place in 3gun/multigun, it may work somewhat in pistol but 3gun/multigun is a different animal. Which is why the association has not been able to do well in it. They are trying to handle it the same way pistol is handled and it doesn't work. You cannot take a marketing strategy meant for the sale and production of methane gas and make it work for perfume sales!!!!! they are similar, but very different.

trapr

[Charles Bond]

You cannot take a marketing strategy meant for the sale and production of methane gas and make it work for perfume sales!!!!! they are similar, but very different.

trapr

Your observation here is very well taken. Of course the fact that sporting clays has ten times the number of members we have with their classification system is also something we can not ignore.

I am still amazed that many shooters want to compare us to NASCAR which is really only about winning for about one third of the field. But for advertising, NASCAR would never have reached its current status and could not maintain it. But what everyone seems to forget that NASCAR does in fact have a classification system which they use at every race. It is called who is on the pole.

Charles

[Jadeslade]

NASCAR is a privately owned business. There are some people who have been in this sport a really long time. I usually listen to them. What's the big deal about classifications? I guess if your whole being is about your stature in the classifications, it could be a real ego downer. I just like to shoot matches, I can't run the sport, so if someone has some ideas and they have been in the sport a while, who am I to say it won't work. There are lots more shooters than are on this forum. I love this forum for its technical information and its match information, but I get really sick of the bashing of USPSA and etc, etc. It is supposed to be against forum rules.

[Mike P]

I am of the opinion that 3-gun doesn't need a classification system, nor does it need a governing body.

Of course if USPSA chooses to come up with a classification for their sanctioned multi-gun competition, its up to them.

I like the different speed limits.