Requiring Club Membership?

[bgary]

Just for the sake of argument, is there a meaningful difference between these things?

-- you cannot shoot our club's USPSA match unless you are a member of our club.

-- you cannot shoot our club's USPSA match unless you are in our "circle of friends".

-- you cannot shoot our club's USPSA match unless you helped set it up.

-- you cannot shoot our club's USPSA match unless you live in our county.

-- you cannot shoot our club's USPSA match unless you drive a Camaro.

-- etc.

Answer: there *is* no difference. All of them apply an arbitrary and exclusionary filter to who can shoot the match, which is *not* supported by the rules. The simple fact is that (excluding the provisions of 6.4.4), I should be able to walk up to any USPSA match, anywhere in the country, and /A/ expect to be allowed to shoot the match and /B/ expect that it will be run according to the USPSA rules, with no "local" or "special" or "extra" rules.

If both those things are not in place at a match, how can it be called a USPSA match...?

[rgkeller]

>>If both those things are not in place at a match, how can it be called a USPSA match...?<<

Because the Club sends monies to USPSA for affiliation, for mission count and for classifiers and because the shooting is conducted under USPSA rules?

[sslav]

My home club is a private club with the same guest restriction(no more than 3 times). However that does not apply to any of the sanctioned matches - USPSA or otherwise.

[bkeeler]

It used to be open for anyone to shoot USPSA matches at our club this is not the case anymore due to some legalities for a Non for Profit organization that I will not get into. So we follow the rules set by our board/members of our club to be able to have USPSA matches. If we didn't well we would not be shooting any matches at all at our club.

P.S I don't really agree with it either,wish it was still open for anyone to shoot USPSA matches but I want to shoot!

Edited July 8, 2010 by bkeeler

[vluc]

Many clubs are not for profit and would function under the same federal regulations. What regs make yours different (or are yours state regs) - if you don't mind my asking?

Edited July 8, 2010 by vluc

[bkeeler]

I believe it had to do with state regulations???? I don't know all of the particulars but I do know that the club did get into a mess over it.

[DWFAN]

maybe they were making too much money on matches?

My club is in Mo also and they allow anyone to shoot any of the organized matches. You just have to be a member to shoot the rest of the time.

[bgary]

>>If both those things are not in place at a match, how can it be called a USPSA match...?<<

Because the Club sends monies to USPSA for affiliation, for mission count and for classifiers and because the shooting is conducted under USPSA rules?

okay, so.... what if my club says "anyone can shoot our matches except people whose last name is Keller... our club bylaws require that restriction".

As long as the club sends money to USPSA for affiation, activity fees and classifiers... you'd be okay with them running a USPSA match that you cannot attend?

[rgkeller]

Sure

But if the USPSA wants to stop the practice, then the USPSA should quit taking their money.

[murkish]

Section 3 which includes 3.3 is entitled "Course Information" and is basically talking about written stage briefings and how you define and publish a course of fire. Its purpose is to prevent local rules such as no running with guns or no drawing from holsters, etc. I think applying 3.3 to more than that is a stretch.

The only limits on discrimination that I can find are the following:

6.4.1

All competitors must be individual members of USPSA, or a current

member of their IPSC region, for Level II and above competitions. A

competitor who submits a paid USPSA membership application to the

Match Director prior to entering the competition is considered a member

for the purpose of this rule.

6.4.3

No person may be barred from participating in a USPSA match based

on gender, race, religion or occupation.

6.4.4

An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at

the match director’s discretion, if the person:

a. has demonstrated an inability to safely complete courses of fire, or

b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match, or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

6.4.5

A Match Director enforcing Rule 6.4.4 must submit a detailed report to

USPSA within seven days of the occurrence.

There is nothing in the rules that I see that would bar host club membership requirements, local USPSA club membership requirements or requiring USPSA membership at Level I matches.

I am not aware of any clubs in the Texas South Section that do this and I would never support it at any club where I participate, but there is nothing that would preclude it.

DVC,

Jack

[bkeeler]

Our match fees are cheap. $5.00 for a USPSA match and $1.00 for Steel Matches.

[sperman]

Just out of curiosity, how much is membership at one of these clubs? My home club charges $650 for the first year. You can bet I wouldn't do this to be able to shoot at another club 12 days a year.

[bgary]

Sure

But if the USPSA wants to stop the practice, then the USPSA should quit taking their money.

Cute, but you ducked the question.

If my club *wants* to put on USPSA matches, *wants* to support the org, *wants* to be affiliated, *wants* their shooters to be classified, etc, etc, etc, signs their affiliation agreement and sends in the money... should they be able to turn you away for some arbitrary reason that is not supported in the rules, and still be in good standing as a USPSA match?

If no, the only "stick" USPSA has is to pull their affiliation, which serves nobody.

If yes... we're all screwed. We'll never know what qualifications and criteria we each will have to meet in order to shoot a match.

[bkeeler]

Just out of curiosity, how much is membership at one of these clubs? My home club charges $650 for the first year. You can bet I wouldn't do this to be able to shoot at another club 12 days a year.

Initiation fee is $100.00 annual dues $150.00. It cost me $150.00 a year to be a member and I can shoot 365 days a year, Trap, Skeet,Archery........The other club is $25.00 per year. I belong to both.

[Chills1994]

anybody here familiar with why PASA park has the same membership requirement in order to shoot USPSA matches?

is it insurance?

is it taxes?

bruce and I call the same club, Arnold, our home club.

if you were to run the math, with the one $5 USPSA match a month and the two $1 "speed plates" matches a month....that's 36 matches a year... you still come out money ahead if you join Arnold even the first year and even more money ahead the second year versus what other clubs are charging for their match fee.

I think if Arnold adopted a two tier pricing scheme for the matches and charged non-members more for matches...well...hey...that would be fine by me....realistically, I think it will just get more people to join Arnold....once they start doing the math like I did.

Arnold also hosts at least one CAS and one IDPA match a month. I'd be curious if the Single Action Shooting Society/IDPA has rules about local club/range membership being required.

[DWFAN]

From IDPA rule book.

3. Club matches and facilities must be open to all IDPA

members.

ARPC-IDPA website doesnt mention the 3 time limit rule(that I remember), is it the same for the IDPA matches ?

Edited July 8, 2010 by DWFAN

[Sarge]

Dear God! I never realized how lucky we are here in our neck of the woods. It costs a few bucks more to shoot a match at all of our local clubs if you are not a member. Our scores are posted on USPSA by our excellent local stats guru. Thanks Chris. (after reading this I realize what a valuable service you do for us.)

I shoot at up to 3-4 clubs locally for USPSA matches and find it insane to even consider joining all of them just to show up once a month. Thats in season no less! Not all of them shoot year round. I joined one club so I could shoot practice, chrono, etc as much as I want.

Like I said, Lucky!

[rgkeller]

Sure

But if the USPSA wants to stop the practice, then the USPSA should quit taking their money.

Cute, but you ducked the question.

If my club *wants* to put on USPSA matches, *wants* to support the org, *wants* to be affiliated, *wants* their shooters to be classified, etc, etc, etc, signs their affiliation agreement and sends in the money... should they be able to turn you away for some arbitrary reason that is not supported in the rules, and still be in good standing as a USPSA match?

If no, the only "stick" USPSA has is to pull their affiliation, which serves nobody.

If yes... we're all screwed. We'll never know what qualifications and criteria we each will have to meet in order to shoot a match.

I said "sure." Ban me if you wish.

I see no rule or policy of the USPSA that your club would be violating.

If you don't approve of the practice, then get YOUR organization USPSA to adopt and enforce such a policy.

And there will be fewer USPSA matches and members.

Edited July 8, 2010 by rgkeller

[Chills1994]

people who want to shoot IDPA more than once according to the IDPA rulebook must also join IDPA.

now...I could be wrong...but I get this notion that the local IDPA leadership " ain't " exactly checking everyone for their current IDPA membership card at every IDPA match.

I could be wrong though...

if that is really the case...well... it's like that glass houses and throwing stones kinda thing...

kinda hard to get any leverage against mandatory club membership when the parent organization's own rules aren't being followed.

but like I said....a "rational person" economically speaking would still come out money ahead by joining Arnold versus say paying ten or fifteen bucks each for 36/48 matches a year.

just an FYI... Arnold already shoots an outlaw version of steel challenge that we call "speed plates"...

[bkeeler]

From IDPA rule book.

3. Club matches and facilities must be open to all IDPA

members.

ARPC-IDPA website doesnt mention the 3 time limit rule(that I remember), is it the same for the IDPA matches ?

Yes it is the same.

I see what everyone is saying I also go to clubs around here that you do not have to join to shoot IDPA/USPSA but you have to join to practice or just shoot. We also post our scores on USPSA website. We shoot 3 times a month and when we don't shoot here there are other clubs to go shoot at. Like I said before I don't much like the idea either but either way I would still join this club for practice and just shoot. The club that is only 20-25 miles away is way too expensive to join then they can hit you with assessment fees:wacko:

Edited July 8, 2010 by bkeeler

[Supermoto]

if you were to run the math, with the one $5 USPSA match a month and the two $1 "speed plates" matches a month....that's 36 matches a year... you still come out money ahead if you join Arnold even the first year and even more money ahead the second year versus what other clubs are charging for their match fee.

I think if Arnold adopted a two tier pricing scheme for the matches and charged non-members more for matches...well...hey...that would be fine by me....realistically, I think it will just get more people to join Arnold....once they start doing the math like I did.

But if you can only shoot 4 matches a year, you really get screwed, almost $70 per match. The pricing might work out in the long run for the dedicated shooter, but for the new or casual shooter, you are really discouraging them for coming... and that is not how you grow the sport

[rgkeller]

if you were to run the math, with the one $5 USPSA match a month and the two $1 "speed plates" matches a month....that's 36 matches a year... you still come out money ahead if you join Arnold even the first year and even more money ahead the second year versus what other clubs are charging for their match fee.

I think if Arnold adopted a two tier pricing scheme for the matches and charged non-members more for matches...well...hey...that would be fine by me....realistically, I think it will just get more people to join Arnold....once they start doing the math like I did.

But if you can only shoot 4 matches a year, you really get screwed, almost $70 per match. The pricing might work out in the long run for the dedicated shooter, but for the new or casual shooter, you are really discouraging them for coming... and that is not how you grow the sport

But, possibly, how they grow their club.

[DWFAN]

if you were to run the math, with the one $5 USPSA match a month and the two $1 "speed plates" matches a month....that's 36 matches a year... you still come out money ahead if you join Arnold even the first year and even more money ahead the second year versus what other clubs are charging for their match fee.

I think if Arnold adopted a two tier pricing scheme for the matches and charged non-members more for matches...well...hey...that would be fine by me....realistically, I think it will just get more people to join Arnold....once they start doing the math like I did.

But if you can only shoot 4 matches a year, you really get screwed, almost $70 per match. The pricing might work out in the long run for the dedicated shooter, but for the new or casual shooter, you are really discouraging them for coming... and that is not how you grow the sport

Or someone like me who goes to St. Louis about once a month, and every now and then that falls on the weekend they shoot. Its not worth it to pay $250 the first year to shoot 3-4 times a year, or even the second at $150. So I just usually try to make those weekends I visit fall on weekends where I know I can shoot somewhere without being a member. (Id much rather shoot than sit around at the in-laws house).

[bkeeler]

We do have 2 bigger matches a year that are open for anyone to shoot. One is a USPSA match and the other is The Central Pro-Am Speed Plates Match. It is funny that most people that visit our club end up joining and it is not till later they find out about USPSA and our Steel Matches. At least I do have a place to shoot and it is my choice to join the club or not I like to shoot so I joined! Just like it is everyone's choice to join USPSA/IDPA or not if you want to go to Area matches/Big matches etc... you have to join.

This has been beat to death:ph34r:

[DWFAN]

We do have 2 bigger matches a year that are open for anyone to shoot. One is a USPSA match and the other is The Central Pro-Am Speed Plates Match. It is funny that most people that visit our club end up joining and it is not till later they find out about USPSA and our Steel Matches. At least I do have a place to shoot and it is my choice to join the club or not I like to shoot so I joined! Just like it is everyone's choice to join USPSA/IDPA or not if you want to go to Area matches/Big matches etc... you have to join.

This has been beat to death:ph34r:

It is a nice club, and I'd join if I didnt live 4 hrs away. I shoot the regional IDPA matches they hold.