Question about running M&P or XDM in Limited

[Prov1x]

I have a friend that is going to try and use an XDM (or XD I can't remember) for Limited USPSA in 40s&w. It's been worked on and has a mag-well, trigger job and a few other upgrades done to it. I had never thought about shooting or converting a 40s&w M&P into a limited gun until now.

I know that you would have to add the extended base pads to the mags, trigger job, mag-well and some other mods etc...but what I really would like to know is how much or if any disadvantage is that going to be instead of using an STI 2011 or something similar?

Honestly wouldn't it really just come down to trigger control, sight picture and moving etc...and really not about the guns performance so to say? Or would you already be at some sort of disadvantage in not using a 2011?

Just kicking around the thought because right now I only shoot production with an M&P Pro but would like to start shooting limited sometime soon but I can't afford a $2000 2011 right now.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Prov1x

[Hi-Power Jack]

The BIG advantage of the STI is the trigger.

Very light, very smooth, very quick to reset.

Probably stuff more ammo into it than an XD as well,

which is always a good idea.

And, the STI is more accurate - lots of people think that

you don't need accuracy in IPSC since the target is so

big, but you do need accuracy - it really does help,

a lot.

But, I shoot a Browning Hi-Power in Limited, because

that's what I have - worse trigger, lower mag capacity

and it shoots MINOR instead of major - BIG disadvantage.

But, boy do I have fun shooting it. I'd love to have

an STI .40, but can't, so I'm having a ball shooting

what I have.

Good luck.

Jack

[buckaroo45]

I shoot an XDM 40 in Limited and have nothing but good to say about it. I have Tru-Glo fiber optics, a Springer Precision clean up, 3.5 lb trigger job and grip tape. I installed a PistolGear magwell and use Arredondo mag extensions / springs for 19+1. C-R Speed mag pouches and a dropped Blade Tech holster finish the package. I have about $1200 in the whole thing. I haven't priced them lately but I suspect you'll invest more in just the STI pistol. If you want to go hard core top of the line equipment then the STI is hard to beat. If you're still trying to put food on the table then the XDM is an easy choice and plenty up the the task.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________-

When I die, don't let my wife sell my guns for what I said I paid for them!

[Whoops!]

In my opinion the second shot on target is what gets the time down. You'll never have the weight to control the muzzle flip with a polymer framed handgun in limited unless someone creates a new alloy that would cause a limited magwell to weigh a pound and a half, even then, you won't have the weight at the muzzle end. Thus, you will never be competitive with the best shooters using 2011's, unless you are significantly better than the best, or in other words, not human.

A lot of people say, "it's the shooter who wins not the gun." This just isn't true, it's the shooter, the gun, and the gun powder and bullet. All of the factors are equal contributors in my honest opinion.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Whoops!

[sperman]

Sevigney doesn't seem to have too much of a problem with the follow up shot using his polymer framed gun.

I can't speak for the XD (m) but the M&P mags with the base pad extensions hold 20 reloadable right out of the box. I know there are guys who can get 21 and 22 out of their S_I mags, but they've got a ton of money and time invested in them. Even reliable 20 round mags can be pricey.

[Whoops!]

I can't find record of Sevigney winning a national or world title, in limited class, with .40 major ammunition in a Glock platform and he's the best. Has he? It's quite possible I overlooked it in my search. I see that he's won limited class with minor (steel shooting) , but much less pistol dynamic is required to minimize muzzle flip with minor ammunition.

Even if he has, I imagine he could have won it twice as many times if he fit and had just as much experience with a 2011 as he does a Glock.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Whoops!

[sperman]

2009 L-10 National Championships. 1&2 were both shooting Glocks. They didn't beat anyone with any talent, just a couple of guys named Michel and Leatham.

2008 L-10 Championships. Sevigney beat Travis.

I bet if Sevigney and Vogel weren't busy shooting production most of the time, they would be very competitive in Limited.

I would guess they were shooting .40 major, but if they beat those guys shooting minor (with no advantage in mag capacity) more power to them.

Vogel even beat the open guys using iron sights at last years Pro-Am, using a glock. If a glock is holding these guys back, I would hate to see what they could do with a 2011.

[Whoops!]

I think one or two national limited wins by one or two shooters still proves my point . There's an inherent disadvantage with polymer framed handguns in limited, one can debate as to how large that disadvantage is, but in my opinion it is significant.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Whoops!

[twodownzero]

Vogel just won A5 limited with a Glock 24.

I just shot a match with the Glock 24 myself, being used to the STI. I have to say that the Glock with a Vanek trigger and Sevigny sights is a good shooter. I can't imagine how great it'll be when I get a mag well and some mag extensions. It's soft shooting, reliable, and quick. As quick as my STI? Really it's up to me.

[Prov1x]

Glad I finally go a little discussion going on in my thread. I was beginning to think I wasn't asking the right type of question or it was stupid question etc....I saw Vogel beat the open guys last year with his limited glock, quite impressive performance by him.

I finally got out to the range with my friend who has the XDM set up to shoot limited and it was not a bad gun at all. The follow up shots, to me, weren't any more noticeable than shooting my own M&P Pro 9mm with factory ammo. To be honest it felt smoother and more of push than anything else.

I don't think that after all the mods have been made that it will make that big of a difference between the two but that's just my opinion. I still think that it's the person behind the gun that matters the most.

So my plan is when the M&P Pro .40S&W come out is to pick up one of those and then make some modifications to it and start shooting limited. We'll see where it takes me...

[raz-0]

This got long, so I nuked it and started over again. 

I got an M&P .40 to shoot in production, l-10, and limited.  I like it a ton. I got a 2011 built because I always waned one. I got it built light because I have mutated from a guy who likes heavy guns to a guy who likes light guns.  My 2011 is pretty light. On draws, transitions, etc, it handles a lot like a better balanced version of the M&P. 

The 2011 is better. 

1) The trigger is light, smooth, a straight pull, and has a short, positive reset. The net result is that I have to think less about trigger control to be doing the right thing at the right time at the right speed. I don't even want to call it an ergonomic thing, it's more like there is more signal and less noise, so I need less conscious thought dedicated to it to get it right enough.  At least IMO the best M&P and XD triggers I have tried just aren't as nice as a good 1911 trigger. 

2) Sight radius. Well, at least that is my best guess as watching me on video doesn't suggest anything else. But basically, I can shoot the 2011 with major loads on the move faster and more accurately than I could the M&P with minor loads. My only explanation is that I'm still calling a sight picture "good" with the same visual alignments, but because of the longer sight radius, the same amount of slop means less actual misalignment.  

3) Reloads. The 2011 has a more tapered mag, a bigger opening, and bigger, better magwells available. I found the M&P without a magwell to be pretty easy to get smooth fast reloads with if I practiced. With the 2011 I find it hard to screw up a reload even if I'm being lazy and sloppy, and that's just with an STI magwell on it, not even a dawson ICE or any of other magwells that are better than the STI one.  The M&P magwells just won't be as good due the practicalities of mouthing the thing. But a properly set up M&P probably isn't far off from a Para with a dawson magwell.

4) Reloads. The kind you make with a press. I found several recipes that make major out of the M&P, but they either suffered from accuracy issues, or from harsh recoil where it has that shock to it like you are whacking something with a hammer. A 5" barrel combined with 180gr bullets or heavier lets you avoid that. 

2 & 4 aren't 2011 specific, and if S&W gets the 40L out the door they will be moot points. 

That being said, an M&P, glock, or XD can definitely be competitive, and the cost of entry is cheaper. Most of the advantages it has aren't that it does something the others can't, but that it is a bit more forgiving. The higher classed you are,  the more that extra margin is negligible IMO. 

[pjb45]

I shot my XD 9 in a limited match last weekend. I had one mag with an extension but even that was not needed. Of course it is the same pistol I use for Production that had Scott Springer do some of his magic to...

But truth be told, I will be shooting my SV in Limited. etc... Way too much fun shooting a SVI than my XD.

[RIIID]

The XDm has the same sight radius as a 5" 1911.

The XDm with the Canyon Creek base pad will hold 21+1.

The XD with the CC base pad will hold 16+1.

The CC stainless steel magwell gives the gun the perfect balance, keeps the hand high up on the grip, and is a true magwell not something that is an add on.

If one wants some weight up front there are tungsten guide rods available in 3.25oz and 4oz.

The trigger can be set up to be short, smooth, and crisp if done by the right gunsmith, no trigger kit will come close. It will be like a long 1911 travel trigger.

The grip can be configured to fit anybody hands.

The XDm will deliver the accuracy.

All of this will cost less than a 2011 base gun.

Polymer framed guns will shoot any power factor, they aren't just Production guns for shooting minor.

As Flex would say pick a gun and shoot it.

Rich

[Whoops!]

Polymer framed guns will shoot any power factor of course, just not as fast as a steel and polymer framed 2011 by two shooters with an exactly equal skill level. Need proof? Physics

[G-ManBart]

Polymer framed guns will shoot any power factor of course, just not as fast as a steel and polymer framed 2011 by two shooters with an exactly equal skill level. Need proof? Physics

When I read things like this I always wonder what class shooter the person saying it is. What are you at?

Physics....great, let us consider that for a second. I believe you're probably suggesting that more weight will limit the amount of muzzle flip so that you can shoot faster right? Hmmmm...guess what? That extra weight will take longer to come back down (reset) because an object in motion tends to continue until acted on by another force. It doesn't go up as high, but it takes longer to revers direction. Then, when it gets back down it's harder to stop it right where you want it to...because it's got more momentum. So, that pretty much kills the whole weight/flip/shoot faster thing.

What's even more interesting, is that the grip, grip strength, hand strength etc all factor into shot to shot (split) times, so it's not just the weight of the gun, and the weight of the gun is probably the least important factor.

Most interesting is that winning matches and having fast stage times has very, very little to do with fast splits between shots and if there's a difference between the two gun platforms it's so slight that it absolutely makes no difference at all.

Take it a step further. Dave S has won a bunch of L-10 national championships against guys shooting S_I guns....didn't seem to hurt there.

Take it even another step further. If that extra weight helps, it should help in Production Division (they're not classes as you said above), just as it would in Limited. Gee, wouldn't a heavy 9mm that barely has any muzzle flip at all be the ultimate? Hmmmm...doesn't seem to be if you look at who's winning, and what they're shooting. R,

Edit to add: I shoot a 2011 in Limited and I'm not even close to being a Glock guy even though that's what I have to carry.

Edited July 11, 2010 by G-ManBart

[sperman]

Bart,

You might want to take a look at your sig line.

[Whoops!]

Hmmm, the world shoot production class winners have all recently been winning with a steel framed, HEAVY handgun. The CZ 75 Shadow. The world shoot limited winners have all won with a heavy 2011 to my knowledge. Obviously weight can't get too extreme due to bulkiness and muscle limitations.

If weight doesn't matter, go shoot a well tuned pocket pistol with an extended barrel. The low bore axis should be right up your alley. A polymer framed full size is just a middle ground between the pocket gun and a 2011. Quit trying to justify a polymer gun because one or two guys can wina couple of areas with it.

[s_gorilla45]

Hmmm, the world shoot production class winners have all recently been winning with a steel framed, HEAVY handgun. The CZ 75 Shadow. The world shoot limited winners have all won with a heavy 2011 to my knowledge. Obviously weight can't get too extreme due to bulkiness and muscle limitations.

If weight doesn't matter, go shoot a well tuned pocket pistol with an extended barrel. The low bore axis should be right up your alley. A polymer framed full size is just a middle ground between the pocket gun and a 2011. Quit trying to justify a polymer gun because one or two guys can wina couple of areas with it.

Interesting. Seems to me that I'm seeing people trimming weight off their SI guns as fast as possible. I've shot 40+ oz limited guns and they are soft but seem sluggish on transitions to me. There aren't many stages that I've shot where the winner was determined because of a sub .15 split.

[Whoops!]

I feel as though softer is very important for side to side play as well. Thus, the follow up shot is more likely to be in the A Zone than the C for the same split time. To keep the a split from losing points, I feel as though a slightly longer time period is required for light, but similarly shaped and designed guns. For transitions, they are more dependant on muscle limitations in my honest opinion.

[RIIID]

"The world shoot limited winners have all won with a heavy 2011 to my knowledge."

Whoops

You better do a little research on that statement, I know of one time a 2011 won the World Shoot in Standard. Current champ used a Caspian and before that a Springfield.

One fact that most don't mention is a 2011 has never won the World Shoot in Open, all have been done with metal framed guns. Tanfoglio, Para, Caspian, P-9, and 1911 single stacks.

[Whoops!]

Yeah, I meant 2011 type gun, I guess I should have said wide body steel frame gun, but I was in a hurry when I wrote it. Even then most have more steel in the frame than a 2011, but, well, you know what I mean.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Whoops!

[twodownzero]

I don't quite understand the bickering here. I know I'm not the only one here with at least one $2000 limited gun. I know Bart has some 2011s. Rich builds some of the most awesome guns of all different types that I've ever seen, including 1911s, double stacks with steel frames, and polymer framed guns. All of us have competed in major tournaments with S_I guns.

Do you really think we have some sort of serious bias such that we'd 'defy physics' by arguing that a Glock, M&P, or XD/XDM could be competitive in Limited?

Call up Rich with your credit card number and I'm pretty sure he'll build you whatever kind of Limited gun you want. I can personally vouch after shooting two matches that he has sponsored when I say what will show up at your FFL will be something of quality like you've never experienced unless you have a gun from a real tradesman. If you can't win with one of his guns, trust me, it ain't the gun.

You're deluding yourself if you don't think that any of these guns can be competitive. It doesn't matter what kind of gun you pick.

Besides, the winners of these matches aren't determined by physics anyway. If they could, the disparity between the top ladies in this game and the top men would not be as large as it is. The top ladies will one day do at least 90% of what the top men are doing (in fact, from what I've seen, at least one lady is already there). The equipment isn't the limiting factor. This is a skill game, plain and simple.

I've had my ass kicked by enough Glocks, XDs, and other plastic guns to know that there's no magic piece of equipment that will make you a shooter. I also showed up to my first mid range rifle match ever last March and spanked three other shooters, including a guy with a $4,000 rifle.

There are definitely more popular pieces of equipment in this game, but if there was a clear winner by science or otherwise, we'd all be wearing rigs that look the same. That's not the case, and thus you'll see all sorts of setups. There must be a half dozen or more popular choices for race holsters alone.

The only thing consistent is guns that go boom and put holes in paper and knock down steel. The rest is the choice of the shooter and the match results have consistently showed that equipment is irrelevant, so long as it is reliable. Want to prove me wrong? Claw your way to the top of the match results against Vogel or Sevigny. Then I'll listen. Until then, the data say you are wrong.

[G-ManBart]

Hmmm, the world shoot production class winners have all recently been winning with a steel framed, HEAVY handgun. The CZ 75 Shadow. The world shoot limited winners have all won with a heavy 2011 to my knowledge. Obviously weight can't get too extreme due to bulkiness and muscle limitations.

If weight doesn't matter, go shoot a well tuned pocket pistol with an extended barrel. The low bore axis should be right up your alley. A polymer framed full size is just a middle ground between the pocket gun and a 2011. Quit trying to justify a polymer gun because one or two guys can wina couple of areas with it.

World championships = IPSC rules. No mag capacity restriction until this year. Everybody who was competitive used a CZ (or similar) for that extra mag capacity. Not only that, but G34s and G35s were prohibited. Funny the same hasn't been true of USPSA championship results for Production or L-10.

Plenty of National Championships have been won with polymer guns, not just Area matches.

Since you've got some strong opinions on this, are a Master, Grand Master????

Honestly, I wouldn't have normally replied, but I'd hate to see some newbie read this and think that they're at a disadvantage with a polymer gun....it is, only if you let it be. R,

[sperman]

Don't forget about the DA minimum trigger pull in IPSC. IMO, that's what makes the CZ style guns dominant in IPSC production division and at a disadvantage in USPSA production division.

[Whoops!]

I don't really feel like putting out anymore points on the subject. Keep watching the World Shoots, steel frame guns will keep winning because they give a competitive advantage over similarly skilled shooters.