M & P Pro 9 shooting low

[Gary H.]

I'm a new shooter when it comes to larger caliber pistols but have shot competetive trap, sporting, and a little skeet. Have also hunted for over 30 years some with rifles and small caliber pistols. Have recently picked up shooting steel plates and IPSA.

Anyhow, I'm having to hold about 5" high at 20 yards with my new M & P with the fiber optic front sight. Don't have that problem with my Ruger Mark III 22/45 (with F/O front sight), my Kimber Raptor (night sights), or the wifes Glock 27 (night sights). Basically, I have to float the fiber optic bead above the rear sight for the poa to be the same as the poi. Am I doing something wrong or is there a simple fix for this? I like being able to pick up the F/O sight so easily as my vision has been giving me some problems in recent years.I asked someone to shoot it last weekend to see if it shot low for him. At 15 yards, he was 2" low the first 2 shots then the last 3 shots were on the bullseye so I don't know if he altered his hold point or not

Do I have any options, am I doing something wrong, or do I just learn to shoot this thing the way it is?

Edited June 27, 2010 by Gary H.

[G-ManBart]

5" off is quite a bit, but ammo will make a difference (typically lighter, faster bullets hit lower) and you can always change the height of the front sight. Dawson Precision makes them in a range of sizes....a shorter front sight might help. R,

[Paul Burtchell]

Gary,

Welcome to the forums

Check out Dawson Precision's website. http://www.dawsonpre...0998-1231195463

http://www.dawsonprecision.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=80000995-1231195306

Dave makes a great front fiber optic front sight for the M&P. He also makes, & I highly recommend, the Dawson Precision adjustable rear sight for the M&P Pro. They also carry the very nice Warren/Sevigny Competition sights for the M&P.

Just some suggestions. I like the adjustable rear sights as you are able to change bullets weights, loads etc. and keep everything zeroed in.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Paul Burtchell

[DocMedic]

I'm a new shooter when it comes to larger caliber pistols but have shot competetive trap, sporting, and a little skeet. Have also hunted for over 30 years some with rifles and small caliber pistols. Have recently picked up shooting steel plates and IPSA.

Anyhow, I'm having to hold about 5" high at 20 yards with my new M & P with the fiber optic front sight. Don't have that problem with my Ruger Mark III 22/45 (with F/O front sight), my Kimber Raptor (night sights), or the wifes Glock 27 (night sights). Basically, I have to float the fiber optic bead above the rear sight for the poa to be the same as the poi. Am I doing something wrong or is there a simple fix for this? I like being able to pick up the F/O sight so easily as my vision has been giving me some problems in recent years.I asked someone to shoot it last weekend to see if it shot low for him. At 15 yards, he was 2" low the first 2 shots then the last 3 shots were on the bullseye so I don't know if he altered his hold point or not

Do I have any options, am I doing something wrong, or do I just learn to shoot this thing the way it is?

I say before you do anything crazy like buying new sights, I suggest getting some black electrical tape, and covering up the F/O. When you do that go back to the range and then see if your still shooting low, it might be that your just not properly aligning the f/o against the black back sights.

[DWFAN]

if you havent already, i would shoot it from a rest and see where it hits.

[Sarge]

+1 to all the suggestions already made. Also, are you shooting reloads? Do they group well aside from being low? If you are reloading and it shoots good groups then try to bench shoot it and verify it still shoots low. At that point I would look at changing the sights as long as you have ruled out ALL shooter related possibilities such as poor trigger control etc.

The reason I mention reloads and grouping is that every load shoots a little different and I know from personal experience that groups can and will move from high to low to left to right with each new load you try sometimes.

[Paul Burtchell]

I'm a new shooter when it comes to larger caliber pistols but have shot competetive trap, sporting, and a little skeet. Have also hunted for over 30 years some with rifles and small caliber pistols. Have recently picked up shooting steel plates and IPSA.

Anyhow, I'm having to hold about 5" high at 20 yards with my new M & P with the fiber optic front sight. Don't have that problem with my Ruger Mark III 22/45 (with F/O front sight), my Kimber Raptor (night sights), or the wifes Glock 27 (night sights). Basically, I have to float the fiber optic bead above the rear sight for the poa to be the same as the poi. Am I doing something wrong or is there a simple fix for this? I like being able to pick up the F/O sight so easily as my vision has been giving me some problems in recent years.I asked someone to shoot it last weekend to see if it shot low for him. At 15 yards, he was 2" low the first 2 shots then the last 3 shots were on the bullseye so I don't know if he altered his hold point or not

Do I have any options, am I doing something wrong, or do I just learn to shoot this thing the way it is?

I say before you do anything crazy like buying new sights, I suggest getting some black electrical tape, and covering up the F/O. When you do that go back to the range and then see if your still shooting low, it might be that your just not properly aligning the f/o against the black back sights.

Somehow I do not see the connection between purchasing a good set of "competition sights" designed for the sport we shoot to be "Crazy" .

I am only suggesting that there are MUCH better sights on the market both fixed and adjustable that will not only take care of the POA/POI issues our forum member is experiencing, but will also give a much better sight picture than that big honkin F/O cable front sight that S&W puts on the M&P Pro.

And when all else fails..... " More cowbell !!!"

Edited June 27, 2010 by Paul Burtchell

[midget]

Gary, I have the same exact gun and had the same problem when I first bought it. Its actually how you are holding the gun most likely. I was new to shooting a pistol so I would shoot the same way I shot a rifle by aiming across my body and turning my head sideways to look down the sites. These guns are setup to look straight down the sites with the gun directly in front of your chest... When I switched, it took care of my low shooting... I hope this help you out!

[Gary H.]

Was hoping to get some bench time at the range today but that didn't work out. Thanks for the Dawson site. I"m sure I'll be utelizing it soon although I'm going to try some other things first.

It seems that I shoot lower the faster I try to shoot. Possibly a trigger pull issue. This is my first DAO gun and I'm not used to them. I haven't shot the Glock quickly so I'm not sure if I'd be doing the same with that. I know when I shoot slow fire at the local indoor range, I shoot about 2" low at 15 yards with this gun. The trigger on this gun is about as good as any DAO I've shot and I have no complaints with it, but it may take some different technique that I'm not catching onto.

I'm not thinking ammo issue either. I've put 3 different factory brands through it and they all seem to be doing the same thing. Not reloading yet.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Gary H.

[G-ManBart]

I'm not thinking ammo issue either. I've put 3 different factory brands through it and they all seem to be doing the same thing. Not reloading yet.

Were they all the same, or different weight bullets? Heavier bullets typically print higher, so a switch to 124 or 147gr ammo might help. R,

[beastfrog]

I'm a new shooter when it comes to larger caliber pistols

I'm gonna suggest you put more trigger time on the pistol before you buy anything. I will be a cup of coffee those groups will slowly rise when you start working that trigger correctly. Try ball and dummy drills and lots of dry fire practice. JMHO.

[Gary H.]

All the ammo I've put through it is 115 grain. Haven't tried anything heavier. I've been doing a bunch of draw/dryfire drill work with it. I'm not noticing the front of the gun dipping as I pull the trigger but I don't know if that is something that a pistol novice can pick up on. Not sure what the ball and dummy drills are but I'll do a search. I can get my hits on the plates with it the way it is now, I just have to remember to aim at the top of the plate. Its a little overwhelming everything that a novice has to remember when he hears the beeper. Add to that remember aiming high is just another thing that sometimes gets forgotten.

[Nemo]

SPEED SHOOTERS SPECIALTIES has all you need to make your M&P shoot where you aim it.

[G-ManBart]

All the ammo I've put through it is 115 grain. Haven't tried anything heavier. I've been doing a bunch of draw/dryfire drill work with it. I'm not noticing the front of the gun dipping as I pull the trigger but I don't know if that is something that a pistol novice can pick up on. Not sure what the ball and dummy drills are but I'll do a search. I can get my hits on the plates with it the way it is now, I just have to remember to aim at the top of the plate. Its a little overwhelming everything that a novice has to remember when he hears the beeper. Add to that remember aiming high is just another thing that sometimes gets forgotten.

I would definitely try heavier bullets and see what happens.

If the front sight dips a slight amount right after the trigger breaks, it won't necessarily hurt anything because the bullet is already gone. Some of that can be due to the fact that the trigger has some over travel after the sear breaks (bothers some folks more than others). That usually gets better with dry fire and practice. The big problem is when the front sight dips before or just as the trigger breaks...then the shot will definitely go low, and often slightly away from your strong hand. R,

[RH45]

I don't remember where 115s printed out of my Pro. I just remember trying a bunch of different loads to see what was most accurate in my gun, and what I thought felt the best. I settled on a Zero 125 grain jhp with 4 grains of Titegroup behing them, and although I knew they were shooting a tad high at 25 yards, I'd never tried them at 50 yards until last week. I ASSUMED that they would have dropped right at point of aim, and was really surprised to find that to hit the center of the "A" zone at 50 yards, I have to hold on the bottom edge of the target!! (Factory sights)

[VirginiaTactical]

My wife and I have the exact same problem with our M&P 9Ls. We purchased warren tactical rears and matched them with a dawson .195 x .125 F/O fronts and both guns shot 2 inches low when we shot groups at 25 yards. Even at 7 yards they pattern right under the front sight. Shooting 147s made them shoot point blank, but that doesnt solve the fact that i had 16,000 montana gold bullets sitting next to my dillon. We just tried out different sights and have gotten the guns to shoot nearly point blank. I just ordered a .170 x .125 from www.speedshooterspecialties.com and I am eager to see how the guns print with those on. That being said ... my 9Ls all print just 1 inch low using .180 x .125 f/o front sights and warren tactical rears. I have shot them on a bench, and verified the groups by shooters on the Marine Corps Bullseye team.

Without a shadow of a doubt I do believe its my velocity and light bullets. Factory 115 grains also pattern the exact same spot ... just not as tight groups =).

I believe your pro comes stock with a .180 front sight. After you shoot your gun on a bench and have a very good bullseye shooter confirm your pattern you might want to think about lowering your front sight. Go with .170 x .125 and see what the difference in group patterns are. By all means your desired results should be point blank with a pistol. There is no reason to have anything but PB with a pistol. (unless you are shooting optics)

[sierra77mk]

Two suggestions.

I concur with the suggestion of 147 grain bullets. That's what mine likes but I do load my own.

Get a black paster and tape over the fiberoptic but keep a sharp edge at the top of the site. Concentrate on the top edge of the site and see if that helps. Maybe the fiber is playing tricks on your eyes.

My fiberoptic was really melted over when it was installed. Almost bigger than the blade so I couldn't see the top black edge for precision shots.

I super-glued the fiber in place so it wouldn't rotate and then shaved the top of the fiber (facing me when shooting) with a blade. So what I see now is a green dot with a flat top and the top black edge of the blade.

Dawson adjustables will solve everything if nothing else works for you.

I agree with Paul that the fiber is too big for precision. Dawson is smaller.

[Gary H.]

sierra77mk, no way that is the issue with the fiber optic. I have to put 1/2 to 2/3 of the fiber optic above the flat rear sight plain to get it to shoot poi at 10 yards. I haven't been shooting this gun lately because of the sight issues. My STI Sentry doesn't have thos problems and I like shooting it just as much. Haven't had time to get down to the club and put it on a bench to check it because of vacation with the family. I'm thinking that the numbers VirginiaTactical threw out there are pretty much what its going to take to get it done with the factory loads. I don't reload right now and finding the heavier ammo locally at a decent price hasn't happened yet.

Thanks all for your advice!

[Gary H.]

Got to spend osme time with this gun finally. Let another good shooter try it out. It appears to be a combination of things going on. My wife and I were having the same issues with it. The other shooter tried his hand and his results were not as low as our, but low. He loaded some of his 124g reloads and it started shooting a little higher POI. I tried with the same ammo and still was shooting 3" low at 10yards. The wife shoots all DAO pistols with a low POI so it was no surprise. By the way, S& W had been great through all this. They wanted me to send it back to them and even offered to pay shipping both ways but I wanted to make sure it wasn't something on my end. I guess I'll spend more time with this gun as a secondary and shoot the STI in competetions.

[AWLAZS]

have you had anyone else fire the gun.

[Gary H.]

have you had anyone else fire the gun.

Yes, had one of the better shooter at the range that night shoot it. Read the post right before yours and it will explain a little. When he shot, he received slightly different results than me. He was right an inch and low 1 1/2" When he went to his 124g reloads, he was more on line height wise but still to the right. It was getting daark so we didn't have time to shoot it as much as we wanted. I'm going down for IDPA practice Wed. night so I plan on shooting it some more. I really like this gun but I wish I could shoot it close to as well as I do my 1911s.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Gary H.

[Paul Burtchell]

http://www.dawsonprecision.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=80000998-1231195463

Install this rascal along with the appropriate corresponding front sight. Adjust as necessary. Life is good

[GForceLizard]

Are the front and rear sights tight? Grab them with your thumb and index finger and try to wiggle them. (It was worth a try.)

Bring it back to the range and have one of the M&P shooters like Steve Filla try it in good light conditions. Other local production/SSP shooters to try; Joe Seuk, Cephas Armstrong, Bill Lovelace, Richard Werner.

How many rounds do you have down the barrel? I shot quite a few through my first gun before I was convinced it wasn't me. If you don't have 500 through it, it's not even broke in.

Are you getting a good group? If you can shoot a tight group then move the sights and get that group centered.

Edited July 27, 2010 by GForceLizard

[Gary H.]

sights are tight as far as I can tell. I'm coming back down this afternoon to shoot it some more in good light. I've got about 1000 rounds through it. Shot steel plate twice and a half dozen other trips to the club and Top Gun with it at 100 - 150 rounds each time. I'll try to find one of those guys and see if they'll shoot it a little. I'm thinking it's me. I have never been real accurate with this gun. I can only get off hand groups of about 3" at 10 yards with Winchester white box. It gets worse with the Wolf stuff. I can still hit plates at 30 yards but it's a task with cheap ammo! I took a trip to Grafs this morning and started purchasing the stuff to start reloading so that may help in time.

[Gary H.]

Had a couple guys shoot it tonight. The gun definately shoots low. I shot it off the rest for close to 50 rounds at 10 yards and had a hole a little larger than a golf ball with a couple fliers just outside that group with the top of the group an inch below the bullseye. 2 other shooters shot with it with similar results but not as low as mine. So it appears that the gun does shoot a little low and I do need some work on my trigger pull. Steve Roach has been great with S & W and I'm going to take him up on his offer of them sending me a pre-paid return label and let them check it out. Look forward to getting it back and installing the Apex parts.

Thanks everybody!