Rule 2.1.6 Ports and walls

[Supermoto]

I feel 2.1.6 only referring to 2.2.2 and does not include barriers and ports

A portion of a stage that I built, a US popper was available to tall shooters, but not to shorter shooters,

if you were tall enough you could engage the popper through a small port and over a NS. only the head was available and it was a difficult shot. But if you shot it and 2 paper targets through the port it saved 1 stop. If you took 2 steps to the left, the popper was wide open with no NS, but now the papers were not. The idea was to tempt tall shooter to make a risky shot. A couple of the taller shooters took the shot, but most did not.

I was told the stage was illegal because not all targets were available to all shooters from the same location. smaller shooters did not have the same choices as taller shooters.

Illegal stage?

stage 2

a NS blocked all but 2-3" of the side of the head at 10 yards, but the target was wide open if you moved to box B. you were not required to move. I had to stand on the edge of the box to see the head, most other would not be able to. I took the risky head shots, everyone else moved the 5 steps.

Illegal stage or not?

stage 3

standing in a box behind a barricade. targets were setup to force the transition to the other side of the barricade, but if I stood on one leg, i could see all the targets. If you were short, it was not available WSB did not specify the transition. I shot all from one side over a NS. Illegal stage?

Thanks

Mike

Edited June 23, 2010 by Supermoto

[Dan Hefta]

As long as the shorter, taller, fatter, skinnier shooters have another option to engage the targets it should be legal, IMO. I am sure that Flex or Nik will use their advanced rules finding powers to validate this, I am too lazy.

[Dan Hefta]

Oh I wanted to add this, there are current classifiers that taller shooters have an advantage on, so in my mind this validates my other post.

[raz-0]

Oh I wanted to add this, there are current classifiers that taller shooters have an advantage on, so in my mind this validates my other post.

There are also a ton of stages taller shooters have a disadvantage on.  

Being a tall shooter, I can attest that we get screwed by an awkwardly positioned port to accommodate shorter folks WAY, WAY more often than people put in a port to benefit us, or mess with us in a manner to force us to strategize differently.  We also seldom have another shooting option presented other than said port. 

However,  anything that offers an easy shot to some based on height while making it really hard for others, is a broken stage design/execution IMO.

[benny hill]

Everyone can go down but shorter people,me, cannot go up w/o a cinder block

[CZinSC]

All three sound legal to me. Along with 2.1.6, Rule 2.1.4 states "Each competitor must be allowed to solve the competitive problem in his own way and must nobe hindered by being forced to act in any manner hich might cause unsafe action. Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an "as and when visibile" basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire."

You stated the WSB didn't specify where you had to shoot the targets from, so as long as the "open" shots were not unsafe, then it sounds all good to me.

[Dan Hefta]

I am 6'2" and 300lbs, so I know all about low port disadvantages. Hurts me just typing about it.

[CZinSC]

I am 6'2" and 300lbs, so I know all about low port disadvantages. Hurts me just typing about it.

6'4" and 310.....I'd rather shoot two Texas Stars than low ports or prone. Once I go down to the ground, I'm not coming up until the ULSC is issued.

[pmd]

I shot this stage and felt it was a bad stage design and that the stage designer and other people at his height and taller had an advantage to the stage.

I'm not sure if this was "legal" or not - I just felt the stage designer built it to his (and taller people's) advantage.

To build a stage with "The idea was to tempt tall shooter to make a risky shot" is again IMHO is a bad stage design.

I also agree with Benny and mentioned something similiar at the match "Everyone can go down but shorter people,me, cannot go up..."

Paul

[AzYooper]

I am at about 5'6", so a bit on the short side. I have seen a young, skinny GM at our matches who is well over 6' easily get through a low port that I struggle getting to. It is a matter of physical condition. If a target is available for 6 footers or taller there is no way I could reach regardless of my flexibility.

I'm not fond of the low ports either.

The shooting positions that have leaning to the left or right do not seem as unfair, at least to me, probably because I do not have problems leaning far. Maybe it is the lower center of gravity. Also a tall person taking the time to lean far, shoot in that position and pull back just doesn't seem quick.

[Supermoto]

I shot this stage and felt it was a bad stage design and that the stage designer and other people at his height and taller had an advantage to the stage.

I'm not sure if this was "legal" or not - I just felt the stage designer built it to his (and taller people's) advantage.

To build a stage with "The idea was to tempt tall shooter to make a risky shot" is again IMHO is a bad stage design.

I also agree with Benny and mentioned something similiar at the match "Everyone can go down but shorter people,me, cannot go up..."

Paul

It wasn't intentionally built to give me or other shooters an advantage, it there to add risk vs reward which is sometimes difficult to make equal. unfortunately this was not equal as it was not available to everyone. I agree it was a poor design aspect of the stage and I will be cognizant of you "little" people when I design more stages I should have made it a paper target higher up so that it would present equally to everyone

do you feel the stage with the 2 boxes was equally poor?

and as always, I do appreciate your input on my stages. its how I learn to make better stages

Edited June 23, 2010 by Supermoto

[JThompson]

I don't like to design like that, but not illegal, what you have to do in a situation like that it to provide the shorter guys something to stand on to make the shot. As a designer, you should never allow yourself to design a stage that doesn't take into account that you will have both tall and short shooting it. You should strive to make it equitable to both tall and short. If you're short you don't design a bunch of low ports. If you're tall you don't design shot that only the Green Giant can make. Yes, even if that shot requires greater risk. If you are cutting out a stop that could be a significant advantage. Don't do it At A5 I did have one low port, but it was at the end. I will not put a low port in a spot that makes you get back up and take off. There are just to many of us with bad knees and big bellies. Also, I will never "knowingly" design a stage in which I have to provide an "aid" for a shooter to get to a shot. Also, at A5 all vertical ports were the length of the wall... you don't have to do that, but I wanted the same shot for both tall and short... ports were set at easy heights for both tall and short. You also need to take this into consideration when making "lean shots." I'm not saying not to do some of this stuff, just make sure that all shooters have the same options and you don't provide and add to one height over another. That's even if you might think, a risk factor, offstes it.

Best,

JT

[pmd]

...do you feel the stage with the 2 boxes was equally poor?

and as always, I do appreciate your input on my stages. its how I learn to make better stages

Mike - Not sure about stage two (was that actually stage 3 at the match?) - I could not see every target from one box during the walk thru -and did not know that it was possible until right now. I guess if I was a few inches taller I would have seen that option So to answer your question - if you built that stage to test tall people I feel that was a bad design too. I did move between boxes and I recall I think I won that stage.

I don't recall stage three - must be getting old..

[Supermoto]

...do you feel the stage with the 2 boxes was equally poor?

and as always, I do appreciate your input on my stages. its how I learn to make better stages

Mike - Not sure about stage two (was that actually stage 3 at the match?) - I could not see every target from one box during the walk thru -and did not know that it was possible until right now. I guess if I was a few inches taller I would have seen that option So to answer your question - if you built that stage to test tall people I feel that was a bad design too. I did move between boxes and I recall I think I won that stage.

I don't recall stage three - must be getting old..

Stage 3 with the boxes was not built by me. But by some even taller

So I guess my next question is, should the rules be amended to say the same amount of scoring point was be equal to all shooters from each location.

[D.Hayden]

Everyone can go down but shorter people,me, cannot go up w/o a cinder block

lol.. short people always say this.

Someone, who is 5 foot nothing.. can get down to a 2' port a lot easier than someone that's not vertically challenged.

Just give a way for both people to shoot the targets. There's no reason not to have some high ports and some low, medium ports where it's shooters choice.

[pmd]

Mike,

I try not to bitch about stage design at local matches - I'm just happy that folks like you are there to set-up.

This does bring up some good questions..

If a stage designer intentionally builds a stage so that only some of the shooters can see targets from some a certain spot - as stated I feel that that is a bad stage design.

If a stage is built and different shooters see different vantage points - I think that's great - that's what free style is all about.

BTW - I felt the stages that JT built at A5 were great and did not give an advantage to any shooter based on height or weight.

[Supermoto]

Mike,

I try not to bitch about stage design at local matches - I'm just happy that folks like you are there to set-up.

This does bring up some good questions..

I prefer you bitch about it, or at least voice your issue so that I can learn and then build better stages. you're not going to hurt my feelings telling me my stages are bad.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Supermoto

[Nik Habicht]

So I guess my next question is, should the rules be amended to say the same amount of scoring point was be equal to all shooters from each location.

The rules are never going to be able to fix bad stage design -- and I'm not commenting on the specific stages here.

If any stage designer consistently builds to favor one type of physical specimen over others, that's a problem. If targets aren't available for all shooters that's a problem.

Yep, tall people sometimes have an advantage in that they can shoot over no-shoots -- but they also sometimes get bit in tighter places. That part, I think equals out....

[Nik Habicht]

Mike,

I try not to bitch about stage design at local matches - I'm just happy that folks like you are there to set-up.

This does bring up some good questions..

I prefer you bitch about it, or at least voice your issue so that I can learn and then build better stages. you're not going to hurt my feelings telling me my stages are bad.

I like that attitude! Learning and improving is what the game's all about....

[G-ManBart]

I'm not seeing how it's possible for the stage to offer an equal challenge to all shooters if only one group is able to take advantage of something like shooting over something allowing them one less position they're forced to shoot from.

Yes, something like a classifier that lets taller people thread the needle over a popper or no-shoot might give them a slight advantage, but it's not letting them skip an additional position. The height of targets and barriers are fixed on classifiers, where it's not on a field course.

[Supermoto]

I'm not seeing how it's possible for the stage to offer an equal challenge to all shooters if only one group is able to take advantage of something like shooting over something allowing them one less position they're forced to shoot from.

The whole intent of the entire stage was to allow shooters to skip positions if they were willing to take harder shots from a few locations, The whole stage could be done in 2 location with a lot of difficult shots, 3 without being able to shoot the steel through the port.(nobody did this) most took 4-5 locations, some 6 positions. And when you took the steel in the wide open you where right in front of a target for an easy shot, compared to having to take it later for a harder shot

It was so close to being a great stage... next time I build it, it will be fair to all and it will be epic

so thanks to all for your thoughts

Edited June 23, 2010 by Supermoto

[Schutzenmeister]

I'm not so certain these are legal courses ...

By designing a course whereby a shooter's physical stature makes it virtually impossible to take advantage of a shooting position (here, the tall vs. short question), I think you may be in violation of 1.1.2 and/or 1.1.6 ... most especially 1.1.6.

If I were to challenge any of these, I suspect that I would do so under 1.1.6 with the claim you have made the course more difficult for short shooters than tall shooters by placing a shooting position such that a short shooter simply CANNOT take advantage of it. And, if I must go some extra distance to be able to have ANY shot at the target, then you have placed me at a competitive disadvantage to a taller shooter ... Hence the shooting challenge is not equal.

The reverse situation is not necessarily true ... A very low port CAN be available to even a very tall (or overweight) shooter, even if they do not like doing it.

In effect, you have designed a course that could give a distinct competitive advantage to taller shooters. The shooting challenge should be the same for ALL shooters.

[ima45dv8]

The reverse situation is not necessarily true ... A very low port CAN be available to even a very tall (or overweight) shooter, even if they do not like doing it.

Just for the sake of discussion, let's look at that in a different light. You and several others claim that low ports maintain competitive equity while higher placed ports do not. But if a shooter of shorter stature doesn't even have to bend, and in some/many cases, slow down, to engage a target through that low port, how does that equate to a taller shooter who does have to stop/bend/get into and out of that position? Simple answer - it does create a competitive inequity in favor of the smaller shooter.

The easy and fair answer is to use vertical slots or slits for access to targets; not ports that give a distinct advantage to the short folks among us.

*Please don't misunderstand. I like short people. I have several friends who are short. I'm even grateful to short people. When I was very young and we were very poor, in the winter we would sometimes grab two little people and rub them together for heat.

Just don't try to sell me on the idea that short ports are equally fair to all.

[Nik Habicht]

Just don't try to sell me on the idea that short ports are equally fair to all.

I don't think that's what Mike was getting at. I think he was getting at the concept that all targets need to be available for all shooters -- and that there shouldn't be a significant difference in availability based on height/body size.....

Most of the time it's a non-issue -- i.e. the big folks may need to bend a little here, but then over there they get to shoot a target from one or two steps farther back than someone a foot shorter.....

When the vertically challenged need to use significantly more positions because of their (lack of) height -- then I'd say we have a problem; and I'd say the same if the height difference went the other way....

[Joe4d]

thats just it the height difference almost never goes the other way, and I dont ever here anyone ever say anything about it. I have seen lots of medium ports that shorter people could just shoot through where tall people had to bend over,seems almost every match favors short people, I only recall seeing a couple stages ever where height gave you an edge. If their are various obsticles in various places that require different stage planning so be it, as long as everyone can see al the targets. People have to plan stages around their physical abilities all the time, I cant run for crap but I shoot a 6" gun and am very accurate, I'll take a long shot in a heartbeat to save a few yards of running. But of all the probably thousands of midget stages I have shot it kinda irks me to see shorter people upset over one or two stages that throw a tall guy a bone.