Sprint to a position or shoot while moving

[jaymitch]

My opinion...

If it's a large target, in close, I'll shoot it moving.

If it's smaller or tighter, I'll run to it, and shoot it still.

If I can shoot one moving in or going out of a position (moving), I will. Then shoot the rest from there, stationary.

If I'm finishing in the final position, I'll run there and stop and shoot.

I've shot way too many misses trying to shoot hard targets on the move that I could have gotten an "easy A" if I'd have stopped.

The best in the world are ALWAYS moving. They shoot everything moving, because movement is time. I'm practicing this skill to make me better, but for a match, I shoot only to the level of my CURRENT ability.

Jeff

+1 to all of that.

Well put!

[Nik Habicht]

I found our how rusty I was when I went and shot the Area 5 match recently.

One of the most rusty tools in my tool box was shooting (well) on the move.

In other words, I am with Jake.

(and remember, this question is posted in the BEginner's section)

O.K., I get that. Once upon a time (1991) I was total newbie and couldn't shoot on the move at all. (There were other deficits....) I had the good fortune of starting off in IDPA where shooting on the move is required on many stages, and then (after making the switch to USPSA) of shooting with Dave Olhasso on a fairly regular basis. One of the first things I noticed when I knew enough about what to look for, was that he always seemed to be moving after the timer went off. He would rarely plant and shoot a bunch of stuff. Now that may have had to with the type of stages we were encountering, or whatever he was working on at the time, or even his personality, I don't know specifically.....

I totally see Jake's point -- especially for people who can move well and explosively. I get yours too -- shooting on the move is one of the toughest skills to master, and one of the ones that erodes fastest.

That said, once a shooter can hit alphas reliably on any target, I think starting to work on shooting on the move can't start soon enough. It helps with entering and exiting positions, in addition to what we may otherwise think of as shooting on the move. I'd practice it ahead of strong or weak hand only shooting -- because it's more useful, more often.....

To suggest that Beginners shouldn't be thinking about it --- well I don't get that at all....

[jkatz44]

Here is a vid by Max....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAHDgmWOkCE

[lugnut]

To suggest that Beginners shouldn't be thinking about it --- well I don't get that at all....

Yep- but it all depends on the HFs. I see lots of people doing drills to test this once or twice but not accounting for the points!

IMO though- it's very important for new shooters to develop the skills to get good shots without moving... as those skills develop incorporate them. You won't get better shots on the move than while static- so if you can't get them while static why make things more challenging? That's just my opinion..

Edited June 27, 2010 by lugnut

[Jake Di Vita]

To suggest that Beginners shouldn't be thinking about it --- well I don't get that at all....

I'm strictly talking about match application here. Once you can call your shots, it's never too early to start practicing anything.

Another way of wording it, a very high amount of shooters A class and below have not developed the skills required to make shooting on the move effective for the duration of a match.

[sperman]

Never mind.

Edited June 27, 2010 by sperman

[lugnut]

Here are Max and Eric shooting the same stage at the Florida Open in 2008.

ETA: "Standby" is at 47 seconds on the Max clip.

This is Max shooting the stage that you posted of Eric shooting it- the two you posted are different... this one looks very similar.

[sperman]

You're right. And they shot it about the same way.

Sorry about that.

[Paul Burtchell]

I've found it much easier to shoot accurately on the move with an open pistol as opposed to iron sights. FWIW

[Neomet]

Jake, great point about relative skill levels. One of my favorite stories is that when I first moved to Phoenix one of the really good GMs here became a bud of mine. He got me to go with the crew up to HDC in NM. My great plan was to follow Eddie as much as possible and shoot the stages the same way he did, learning course breakdown from the best. Well the part I didn't take into account was that I had just barely clawed my way into C class. Lets just say there were cataclysmic stage execution failures the likes of which I doubt have been seen before or since. It was fugly. Lesson learned. Painfully. :roflol:

[Jake Di Vita]

Good story, and one I've heard (and experienced) many times.

I remember a few years ago I took a class from Max and Travis before the Targeting Education match. I believe I was the only GM in the class. Well to make a long story short, some of the class was getting miffed because Max would keep coming over to me and giving me individual tidbits of instruction, but what they didn't understand was if he told them the same thing he told me, it would have had drastically different (and detrimental) effects on their game.

To know where you are going, you have to know where you are starting from. For example, a "C" class shooter shouldn't concern himself with how to save 5 hundredths of a second on a table start. The time can be better spent working on other things. The law of diminishing returns is definitely in effect here.

[XRe]

A man has got to know his limitations...

Most newer shooters have no real technique for shoot on the move, which hampers their abilities greatly, and as Jake rightly points out, until they get a few other skills under control, SOTM isn't a worthwhile avenue to start pouring time into... However, even early on, it's been my experience that some basic skill development here makes a difference - especially with the rise of frequent "up close and personal" stages in a lot of the matches we see. At the very least, it gives them a basis to depart positions while moving out on the last target, and to enter positions shooting at the earliest time possible (those are really SOTM style movements, even if no shot is fired while actually moving... setups and exits are a transition through SOTM pace to either stop or "run like hell", and the same fundamentals really apply to make things most efficient).

You really do need to know what you can get away with - at what distance can you engage a given target and reliably shoot A-zones all day long while moving at a good pace (not dinky little tiny, tentative steps, but really move out, as GMan says above). If you don't know this, you might be best off standing and shooting. If you do, you can empirically figure out if it would be faster for you to shoot the stage on the move, or flat footed - you can pace off the targets ahead of time, and know the tradeoffs...

I've recently been re-examining my numbers on the clock, and comparing these very decisions back and forth. For me, anything 15 yards and in, I invariably score better (ie, HF score, and also fixed 5 HF scoring) by shooting on the move - even if I end up having to take a couple of extra shots on things like 8" plates. In the 15-18 yard range, it becomes a toss up, and depends quite a bit on the targets in question - generally, I can hit the targets on the move, but my pace tends to get slow enough that I break even, or sometimes worse. Beyond 18 yards, I'm typically best off posting up and shooting flat footed. Any time a no-shoot enters the picture, those distances get a bit closer... I know this because I've done the work to figure it out, and it's the current state of my game. As time goes on, those distances get pushed out slowly, but at this point, they really require work to make that happen - and then some amount of push on game day, too, to use that level of performance where required.

[CHA-LEE]

As stated before its important to weigh the risk verses reward on shooting on the move verses stationary. If you are moving along at a snails pace while shooting on the move its usually not worth it. You also need to think of the advantages of shooting while moving which should be mainly to keep your gun running as much as possible during the stage run. If you are moving as you are shooting so you can make the next target to engage available sooner then it will usually be faster than shooting static then hauling ass to the next position.

There is no hard set rule as to when to shoot on the move or not as every target array or course of fire is different. But generally if you can shoot while moving at a decent speed it will almost always result in a faster stage time than static position shooting with fast movement in between positions.

When I break down a stage I look for reasonable opportunities to shoot on the move when the stage allows it. I think the key is to keep your efforts optimized in doing multiple things at once. If I am moving without shooting I better be hauling ass to the next position or doing a reload because any time the gun isn't running its pure wasted time. The goal should always be to minimize the time the gun isn’t running. The sooner the shooting is done, the sooner the stage is over. Think of ways to shoot the targets sooner and you will usually find that shooting while moving is the best tool for doing just that.

[pries81]

To know where you are going, you have to know where you are starting from. For example, a "C" class shooter shouldn't concern himself with how to save 5 hundredths of a second on a table start. The time can be better spent working on other things. The law of diminishing returns is definitely in effect here.

Well put!

[BradGannaway]

I think efficiency entering and leaving a postion is really what I'm talking about I guess. Shooting at, say, a close target while still moving into position rather than moving to that position, stopping and shooting. Same thing moving out of position. Just over the matches I've been to so far and my practice sessions (both live and dry-fire)I've been trying to find more efficient ways to do things. Moving to a position and setting prior to shooting seems to be wasted time unless, as has been said, you can't make Alphas while still moving. I've found that unless it's a longer target I can engage them while still moving and call Alphas as well as make them. Now, if it's a longer target I can't do that...yet.

It's funny you should be on the topic of efficiency while entering a position. I had a M pull me aside a couple months ago and give me one of the best tips I've ever received. He told me to "begin" to stop about a half step away from my predetermined foot position.

Why? (that's what I asked )

When I SLAMMED into a position, my gun was almost already up and I was setting the sight picture up. This caused a little (and sometimes a lot) of front site bounce, which sometimes cost me anywhere from .5 to 1.5 seconds trying to get the front sight on target.

So I started to "slow down" a half step before my position and now, by the time both my feet are in position, I've either already fire one shot and sometimes two. What it allowed me to do was keep that front sight steady all the way through the presentation, thus kind of allowing me to shoot "on the move" and not really think about it.

I did a lot of practice on this at the range, and still do to keep my body reminded that even though I have explosive movement, I don't have to have explosive stops.

I'm just a C shooter, but I thought that sounded like the kind of answer you were looking for. I may be wrong.........

BSG

[Gordian]

Fantastic thread! I'm a C soon to be B shooter and I've been struggling with this topic myself. My shooting on the move skills aren't that great, but neither are my movements into and out of position. When I'm standing still I'm shooting A's almost all of the time.

After reading through this thread it sounds like that I want to really focus some training on position entry and exit - this would be a primary goal for improvement. A secondary goal is to improve shooting on the move, if and when the easy shots present themselves so I can have the confidence to take them.

Does this sound like the way to go?

Edited July 22, 2010 by Gordian

[Mo Hepworth]

it is easier to shoot cleaner while stationary. Shooting on the move will have its advantages especially with an optic and if the targets are closer and wide open. The type of surface will sometimes limit that,...I find shooting on gravel surfaces to be more difficult while moving. I like to engage targets on the move when I am entering a shooting area, taking the first targets I see which are usually the closest then settle in to shoot the more difficult targets. This limits the way I exit as well. Sometimes you have to come in and get a stable position, engage the more difficult targets, and then engage the easier targets at an angle that allows you to start moving away/shooting them on the move.

Like previous posts have mentioned, there is no right answer; everything depends on the shooters ability and the course design.

[benos]

This drill that taught me a LOT about the importance of efficiency, mostly when leaving a posttion, and also when entering a posittion.

Set up two 10" plates at 25 yards, about 10 feet apart. And set up a shooting box about 5 yards in front of where you start. Draw and shoot both plates then move forward to the second box and shoot both plates again. Note your total time and the split time between the boxes. The repeat, over and over and over and over, noting both times for each run.

You can also set it up so you move left to right, and right to left.

be

[SA Friday]

This drill that taught me a LOT about the importance of efficiency, mostly when leaving a posttion, and also when entering a posittion.

Set up two 10" plates at 25 yards, about 10 feet apart. And set up a shooting box about 5 yards in front of where you start. Draw and shoot both plates then move forward to the second box and shoot both plates again. Note your total time and the split time between the boxes. The repeat, over and over and over and over, noting both times for each run.

You can also set it up so you move left to right, and right to left.

be

Brian, along with the above, how does one determine when targets should be taken inbetween shooting positions? Say for example the same above drill with two paper tgts between the steel and a shooting area between the boxes. Same drill as above, but should the paper be taken standing in one of the boxes or during the transition between boxes? What factors determine one over the other?

[muahdib4]

I've been following all the replies from Brian E., Jake Divita (who also has a blog with training drills I use) and all the other shooters who are above my current skill level and offered great advice. Over the last couple of matches I've found that, with practice, I've been able to shoot more targets while moving into position and while moving out of position which has actually allowed me to take some strings and positions without even stopping. True, it all depended on the shots and my comfort level with those strings but it shaved several seconds off my times. The drill that B.E. talked about above is similar to several that I have been using. I am finding those are places where time can be shaved off considerably at my level though maybe only tenths or hundredths at the skill level of others. I'm loving the learning curve and finding new methods to do things. I guess Area 3 will be my first real test. Hopefully I'll get some good video of me shooting stages and a couple of GM's that will shoot a couple of squads behind so I can compare.

[FN fan]

Judge it by target, if you can hit a target moving go for it but if it is a longer shot or difficult then it makes sense to stop to make sure you hit it. But it all comes down to preference.

[jamautry]

I have noticed that in the past I have given a lot of thought on entering an array but almost no thought to exiting the array. A month or so back I was watching Rob L on Shooting USA and realized that how I exit an array sets up how I enter the next. Seems obvious now but until then I gave no thought to how to exit to setup entering the next shooting array. In practice I realize that how I exit and array has the same effect on the timer as how I enter it. So now I let the stage/array dictate how I shoot it but in general I like to sprint to a position and then as I shoot through that array start to move toward the next position, then sprint to the next position and repeat.