Choosing a Division is about more than the gear

[Graham Smith]

I started shooting Production two seasons ago with a Glock 19. For most of last Season, I was shooting Production with a Glock 35 loaded to about a 140PF. This change was by way of getting ready to shoot Limited this year. It took me a few matches (and some gear modifications) to start getting the feel for Limted but this month, I did fairly well - or at least I thought I did.

My shooting had smoothed out, in part because I could be less concerned with mag changes, and my speed and accuracy were getting better. In fact, there were a couple stages in the last match I shot where I was pretty happy with my shooting. A couple of the guys on the squad even complemented me. But when the scores came out I was ranked OK overall but considerably lower than I expected in Limited. A close examination of the scores told the story, I was doing better, but it was against people who were significantly better than me.

I knew that moving from Production to Limited was going to be a challenge, but I don't think I appreciated until now just how much of a challenge. It's got me thinking that maybe those extra mag changes weren't so bad after all. Production is looking better all the time.

[Field]

nothing wrong with mag changes. good dexterity practice.

[bbbean]

A close examination of the scores told the story, I was doing better, but it was against people who were significantly better than me.

Most Limited shooters are shooting major. If you ran your 35 with a major load, you might find that you're doing better relative to the other lim shooters.

[Sarge]

A close examination of the scores told the story, I was doing better, but it was against people who were significantly better than me.

Most Limited shooters are shooting major. If you ran your 35 with a major load, you might find that you're doing better relative to the other lim shooters.

+1 on Major vs. Minor scoring. Also, it seems at the local matches around here alot of new shooters pick production when in reality you can just as easily get started in limited as a new shooter as well. Seems like most shooters migrate to limited just as you are doing, and for that matter just as I am going to do next season probably. Limited is a big pool with lots of fish.

[SA Friday]

Limited and Production are two different versions of the same game. The equipment options from each result in the shooter focusing on different skills in unique ways. When I switched to Limited, my draw and reload were very solid, but my movement did and still does suck. Limited, you get to focus more attention on your movement because you are not jamming a new mag home every time you move. stick with Limited for a while. Focus on learning how to move faster and more efficiently. Then, if you want to go back to production later, it isn't going anywhere.

[Chills1994]

I'm sorry folks but I just don't get this whole major/ minor scoring rift between production and limited ...and it really is starting to get my panties in a bunch...

I think you all have the mindset bass ackwards.

to do well at this game you need to shoot A's ...preferably all A's....

(wait for it....wait....wait)

quickly....

regardless if you are shooting major or minor power factor.

if you are relying on shooting a major PF'ed platform as a crutch for sloppy shooting...well...major is only going to carry you so far....

yes, limited is a bigger pond with more sharks....

which reminds me of that saying: if you are out swimming in the ocean with your "friends" and you spot a shark, you don't have to be a really good swimmer...just not the slowest...

Edited May 29, 2010 by Chills1994

[MarkCO]

To some degree, division choice is a matter of preferences. I really like revolvers, and I shot them in IDPA, but never in USPSA because to me, the time reloading is just too much for my enjoyment. Optics and comps are for Rifles. That leaves me production, SS and Limited. Limited, to me, is the biggest pond with the biggest fish, locally and nationally. At the recent RM300, the highest cash payout was to the winner of Limited C class, because it had the largest number of shooters. I might venture into SS next year, since it is the 100th birthday of the 1911. I use Lim 10 for "practicing things" since I don't shoot a lot of USPSA matches and I want my classifiers to be a true reflection of my shooting, not experiments. If Lim 10 goes away, I would likely use Production for the same reason. At least shooting a Glock, is probably costs about the same, if not more, to play in Production than Limited. All the extra mags and carriers are at least equal to a mag well and extensions in terms of cost.

In consideration of Minor v. Major in Limited, I have run my scores back and forth and tried to adjust them for the slight increease in speed shooting minor and I really find them to be a wash for my shooting style. In consideration of reloads, that varies as well. I shot Lim 10 using my total Limited rig just loading 10 last match. My foucs was on reloads, planning for reloads and not so much on the rest of the stuff we have to keep track of doing a match. As a result, I shot one of my best pistol matches winning 4 of 5 stages and Lim10. As a conrol freak, letting my shooting flow while being focused on all those relaods helped my overall scores. YMMV.

[Chills1994]

hmmmm...interesting...

different strokes for different folks....

I would just rather not be hassled with reloads during a stage....but rather focus strictly on the shooting and the moving. I shot a beretta 92 FS (in 9 mm...yes it does start out in double action mode....I guess I just like doing things the hard way) with the mec gar 20 round mags.

[Graham Smith]

Most Limited shooters are shooting major. If you ran your 35 with a major load, you might find that you're doing better relative to the other lim shooters.

I am shooting major, that was one of the gear changes I mentioned.

I think my point is that, as it was so well put, "limited is a bigger pond with more sharks".

Edited May 29, 2010 by Graham Smith

[Nik Habicht]

Most Limited shooters are shooting major. If you ran your 35 with a major load, you might find that you're doing better relative to the other lim shooters.

I am shooting major, that was one of the gear changes I mentioned.

I think my point is that, as it was so well put, "limited is a bigger pond with more sharks".

Graham,

I think it depends on the match. In Jersey, you can easily have more folks shooting production, including a master and a GM. At a now defunct match in Lower Providence, you could compete in Open against 4-5 Masters. At some matches, Limited is the place to find competition.....

Besides the competition though, there's a different strategy to attaining the highest hit factor possible in the different divisions --- and that takes a little time to learn too. What works for the winners, may not work for the C and B class shooters --- but it's a place to start the experimenting....

[bbbean]

I'm sorry folks but I just don't get this whole major/ minor scoring rift between production and limited ...and it really is starting to get my panties in a bunch...

I think you all have the mindset bass ackwards.

to do well at this game you need to shoot A's ...preferably all A's....

(wait for it....wait....wait)

quickly....

regardless if you are shooting major or minor power factor.

if you are relying on shooting a major PF'ed platform as a crutch for sloppy shooting...well...major is only going to carry you so far....

No one said anything about crutches or sloppy shooting. Consider the fact that the last time TGO didn't take top honors at a single stack event it was because his ammo went minor, and in a field where the difference between first place and anything else is just a point or two, losing points on a handful of charlies killed his score. The fact of the matter is that you're probably going to throw the occasional C or D. In some cases, it may even be by design (avoiding a no shoot, or taking a shot from a position where A isn't available). There's a reason you don't see many minor shooters at the top of any division other than production.

[millisec]

Graham,

I think it depends on the match. In Jersey, you can easily have more folks shooting production, including a master and a GM. At a now defunct match in Lower Providence, you could compete in Open against 4-5 Masters. At some matches, Limited is the place to find competition.....

I would expect that to be the case in NJ with a state 15 round mag limit (I endured that state 10 years including being there when the assault weapon ban happened). Just curious how open/limited even exists there and other places with statutory mag limits?

[JimmyZip]

I am shooting better now as a production shooter than I ever did last season with my limited rig, and I think it washes down to practice. I practice more because production guns are harder to shoot. Trigger control, reloads, and draws from behind the hipbone are all harder than with my limited rig. To compensate, I've been practicing more of those things and movement/distance too because I feel I have too with that Glock trigger. End result is my first two classifiers with the G17 are better than almost all my L/L10 classifiers.

We had a shooter visit our range a couple of years back by the name of Mitch Mora. I think he is a M or GM in production. I think he beat everyone there running a Glock. When you watched him shoot, he didn't seem so blazingly fast, but rather quick and smooth. His shooting was fun to watch. I bet in practice he pushes alot harder than in a match. He didn't seem to be in a hurry at all. He was just smooth and accurate.

JZ

[Chills1994]

oh...come...on...Mr. Bean...you're talking about Rob Leatham....fer criminy's sake...

he is and his records or bio will always be the exception the rule.

you might see it has him losing the Western States Single Stack Classic because his ammo failed to make the 165 major PF cutoff.

prima facie...yeah...that's true...

but hand in hand with shooting minor PF legitimately in single stack, a gun can start out with ten plus one...

so the flipside to your coin is that maybe he lost because he only had eight plus one rounds in the gun.

an A is still worth five points ...a mike is still a mike regardless of what PF ammo you're shooting.

and IIRC from Rob's facebook page ultimately I think it was too many make up shots on steel that got him. ....I think...

just my opinion from where I see it upon my soapbox....your mileage can and will vary.

[konkapot]

To follow up on what Nik said....the nature of the match can have a huge impact. The example I'm thinking of is how tough the stage is.

A hoser match with a bunch of close up and clean targets.....might not be much of a difference between major/minor.

Through some partials, distance targets, and moving targets and all of a sudden those C hits will start to add up very very quickly.

FY42385

[Chills1994]

depending on how tight the partials are...like with an "oreo" target(s) array ( brown cardboard in the front, white no shoot in the middle, and then a brown one on the back...or if they are standing abreast...or reverse oreo...white, brown, white)

then there won't be any C hits to worry about.

it will be either two Alpha's

or an alpha, mike, hit on a no shoot.

or two mikes and then a hit on each no shoot.

so PF ain't gonna matter much...at least not to the no shoots.

one of these days I will splurge and get a for real STI double stacked .40 cal limited gun and shoot major...

when I do ya'll will be the first to hear me say:

A. shooting major is awesome

B. shooting major sucks

C. shooting major is a waSh because I still shoot a bunch of alpha's anyway...gimme back my Beretta 9mm

not to toot my own horn or anything but I was the guy locally who was entering matches as Open, still shooting minor with the iron sighted and uncomped Beretta ....until enough open shooters complained....I guess about me beating them....and then bot-a-boom-bot-a-bing some of my classifier scores unbeknownst to me got submitted as limited instead of open.

VOILA!

instant B class limited.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Chills1994

[bbbean]

so the flipside to your coin is that maybe he lost because he only had eight plus one rounds in the gun.

an A is still worth five points ...a mike is still a mike regardless of what PF ammo you're shooting.

I'll note that just last weekend I ran the same stages twice - once with my Single Stack in .45 shooting Major, and once with my 9mm 1911. Even though the minor run was a reshoot, so I'd already run the stages, knew the shots, could correct mistakes, and could eliminate a reload, I still managed to beat myself with my first run in major. Corey Estill recently posted that he's had the same experience when he does a reshoot with his minor SS. There's a reason you don't see many shooters winning matches in Lim, L-10, SS, or Open with minor ammo. The extra capacity just doesn't make up for the the points lost on a C or D, and even the best shooters manage to hit the occasional C or D.

You can point to a handful of exceptions (BJ, Julie G, et al) but in most of these cases physical size is an issue. Besides, I'm convinced BJ was genetically engineered to shoot, so he'd do well with a straw and a couple of napkins to make spitwads from.

But the crux of the issue is that when we look at what the top shooters actually choose and shoot with, they opt for major. There were 3 minor shooters in the top 50 at the Single Stack Gnats. There were none in the top 50 at the Limited Nationals, 5 at the Lim-10 Nats, 1 at the Revolver Nats, and 2 at the Open Nats. It's probably fair to say that at least some of these were shooters who intended major and went minor by mistake.

So while you're correct in principle, and while someone who shoots only As could take advantage of faster splits and increased capacity in minor, it doesn't work out that way in practice. Maybe that's because most of us don't shoot As exclusively. I note that Bob Vogel won the Production Nats (the division that places the highest premium on A hits) with 4 Bs, 32 Cs, and 2 Ds. If the Production champ throws those hits, it seems reasonable to expect that mere mortal shooters will also throw non-Alphas on at least an occasional basis.

Edited May 31, 2010 by bbbean

[mike4045]

For me I can shoot minor faster and more accurately in practice. In a match it's a wash. When the timer goes off I can't tell the diffence. I just line up the sights and shoot.

[Ron Ankeny]

There's a reason you don't see many minor shooters at the top of any division other than production.

Yeah, it's because scoring minor sucks.

[bigcat]

i wish i would have had checked a little more into it before i bought my gun. i bought a eaa witness match and i thought that i could shoot production with any gun that was un modified and stock. now i am going to start shooting as a rookie in limited and i have to admit it is a little intimidating. but i am not one to shy away from a challenge lol

[Chills1994]

^^^ it's a matter of mindset...or rather paradigm...try to look at it in a postivie light...if you see your name at the bottom of the list in the limited division at the local matches, that's all the more reason to be motivated to do better.

@ Mr. Bean...just an FYI...just a quick perusal, again, over the 2008 Single Stack Nat's results still shows two then local guys I know who shot 9mm as being scored as Major.

So...I would like to put more faith into the results I see posted...but ...ya can't always believe what ya read.

[Odawgp]

There's a reason you don't see many minor shooters at the top of any division other than production.

Yeah, it's because scoring minor sucks.

if your shooting all A's like you should what is the difference...?

[cas]

Everyone has there own view of things. Me, I like the reloading, it's what makes it fun and a challenge. The more the better.

Watching the Open guys shoot, to me, it doesn't look fun, just stressful.

It takes a lot of hard work to be really good. I view it like I do hunting, I enjoy it too much to turn it into work.

[bdpaz]

if your shooting all A's like you should what is the difference...?

Who says you should shoot all "A"s? Long shots and targets with only a small part of the A-zone visible are examples of when hitting all "A"s just takes too much time, and then minor hurts.

You may not be able to miss fast enough to win but you can certainly hit slow enough to lose - I do it regularly!

[bigcat]

Everyone has there own view of things. Me, I like the reloading, it's what makes it fun and a challenge. The more the better.

Watching the Open guys shoot, to me, it doesn't look fun, just stressful.

It takes a lot of hard work to be really good. I view it like I do hunting, I enjoy it too much to turn it into work.

i would like to shoot an open gun just to say i did but i agree it kind of doesn't look as fun as the other divisions. reloading is fun to me to if i can ever get more mags to run my gun lol

Edited June 2, 2010 by bigcat