Why is there never a chrono at local matches?

[Pro2AInPA]

Just wondering why there are only chrono stages at major matches.

Without a chrono at local matches, we are taking people on their word that their ammo makes major or minor PF.

So is it simply because there is less at stake (no prizes, payouts etc) and a chrono stage is simply too time consuming?

[BillD]

Too time consuming, takes too many people to staff and run. If you don't go around collecting, labeling and delivering ammo, folks that show up at the chrono with their ammo ready will probably have "chrono ready" ammo.

[John Heiter]

You also get your chrono shot up if you don't have a good setup with a rest, etc. I know it doesn't seem like you would because everyone should be able to shoot through that gap but ummm yah,

[Heckler]

+1 on time. I usually have a large "Honey Do" list for after the local match's. How many of those items I get checked off seem to be directly related to how much I get to shoot in the future.

[Xfactor]

...Without a chrono at local matches, we are taking people on their word that their ammo makes major or minor PF...

It's true, most local matches are on the honor system... although some clubs will have a chrono stage once in a while just to flesh out those that "don't realize" that they're under their declared power factor.

The folks that are below power factor may have an advantage at local matches, but they're at a disadvantage at major matches where they either have to change their load, or go minor/sub-minor...

Edited May 10, 2010 by Xfactor

[Chris iliff]

After going minor at A6 I wish one of the locals I go to would have had chrono!

[vluc]

We have been toying with the idea to incorporate one into a regular match at some of our different local clubs. Not as a chrono stage but as part of a COF. You could avoid a chrono stage (but why would you), but hard to avoid if it is a part of a COF.

No announcement that there is one, you just show up and it happens to be there.

[Pro2AInPA]

We have been toying with the idea to incorporate one into a regular match at some of our different local clubs. Not as a chrono stage but as part of a COF. You could avoid a chrono stage (but why would you), but hard to avoid if it is a part of a COF.

No announcement that there is one, you just show up and it happens to be there.

How the heck would that work?

Make it so that in order to engage one of the targets, the shooter must shoot through the chrono?

All it takes is one jerk of a trigger for the chrono to get shot . . . I always use a rest when shooting through my chrono.

[Intel6]

We have been toying with the idea to incorporate one into a regular match at some of our different local clubs. Not as a chrono stage but as part of a COF. You could avoid a chrono stage (but why would you), but hard to avoid if it is a part of a COF.

No announcement that there is one, you just show up and it happens to be there.

How the heck would that work?

Make it so that in order to engage one of the targets, the shooter must shoot through the chrono?

All it takes is one jerk of a trigger for the chrono to get shot . . . I always use a rest when shooting through my chrono.

At one of our local matches a chrono was set up with the screens incorporated into a smaller diameter black plastic drainage pipe/culvert. At the end of the stage, the last few shots were fired through the pipe. after the stage was over and the range was made safe the competitor could go look at what their bullet FPS was. It was only used for the information of the competitor and was not used in the match.

Yes there were a few guys who did not make thier declared power factor and they were shocked and had lots of excuses.

Neal in AZ

[BSeevers]

Want a chrono at a local? Set it up, I'm pretty sure MD won't argue.

I used to have a surprise chrono at locals. First time, over 40% didn't make it.

I have shot states where a roving RO carryed the chrono and picked up your dropped mags at the end of your run. No light box but good test, I think.

Also shot a major that had the chrono set up at the end of the stage and did just about the same thing.

I have also been to majors in the past where you give your 8 rd sample but when you walk up RO grabs a mag on your belt. New rulebook spells out procedures that prevent most of this as Not allowed. Kind of a bummer

[Xfactor]

We have been toying with the idea to incorporate one into a regular match at some of our different local clubs. Not as a chrono stage but as part of a COF. You could avoid a chrono stage (but why would you), but hard to avoid if it is a part of a COF.

No announcement that there is one, you just show up and it happens to be there.

How the heck would that work?

Make it so that in order to engage one of the targets, the shooter must shoot through the chrono?

All it takes is one jerk of a trigger for the chrono to get shot . . . I always use a rest when shooting through my chrono.

Interesting thought...

Maybe it could be a fixed-time standards-type stage. *Very* generous amount of time given to engage 7 mini poppers all in a line at 25 yards or so... from a seated-at-table position, of course. To make the "stage" more interesting, after the seated position, it could then have the shooter stand up, perform mandatory reload, move to another box and engage other targets freestyle.

ETA: Even if the chrono results weren't "official" for the match, it would serve as an enlightenment to those that didn't realize that they're under PF... and an embarrassment to those that did realize!

Edited May 10, 2010 by Xfactor

[Xfactor]

Want a chrono at a local? Set it up, I'm pretty sure MD won't argue...

The issues with a chrono stage at a lot of the local matches are time and range space... In the case of my home club, if a dedicated chrono stage were to be set up, it would take the place of another stage, which would leave only 4 stages. That said, our MD is still considering pulling one out in the near future...

Edited May 10, 2010 by Xfactor

[Sarge]

I usually have my chrono with me at every match. I try to make it known so if anybody wants to check their ammo they can. But I agree a chrono stage would be too time consuming for a local match. Besides I think many local shooters only shoot local matches, and it's not that they are cheating, I just don't think they care if they make power factor. I know for a fact there are folks shooting local matches that don't even know what the PF requirements are. They are just shooting for fun mostly. Those few who actually travel to majors and are competetive will have chronos. I'm sure there are always a few, but I am not convinced the sport is full of cheaters.

[moverfive]

.....anybody not shooting a round similar to the power factor they would at a real match is only hurting themselves. So if folks want to shoot minor at local matches, let them! That when they show to shoot a real match and have to shoot major - they will wish they had been using major previously. :-)

[Xfactor]

... I think many local shooters only shoot local matches, and it's not that they are cheating, I just don't think they care if they make power factor...They are just shooting for fun mostly.

I agree. I think (hope) there is only a small minority of folks intentionally declaring major with a known minor load. But for those that just don't know any better, a chrono will show them that even though they're shooting, say, a pistol chambered in 40 S&W in Limited, they're in fact shooting minor... so they can declare accordingly on their score sheets going forward.

[rvb]

For a good time, make a chrono available at a match. You don't have to require it. Just watch the peer pressure and jokes and excuses fly. Saw that at a match a few years back. It was pretty entertaining. I think a couple of dollars exchanged hands, too.

... I just don't think they care if they make power factor.

I get what you're saying, but where do you draw that line? Would you let them use 15 round mags in production just cause they don't know the rule? I'm gonna try telling the officer I just don't care what the speed limit is or how fast I was going the next time I get pulled over...

a chrono will show them ... they're in fact shooting minor... so they can declare accordingly on their score sheets going forward.

I think this is the best approach... not that you are busting people for the match today, but informing people for the future. People who honestly don't care will be content to mark minor. Some will change their ammo. Some will change nothing.

-rvb

[Sarge]

... I just don't think they care if they make power factor.

I get what you're saying, but where do you draw that line? Would you let them use 15 round mags in production just cause they don't know the rule? I'm gonna try telling the officer I just don't care what the speed limit is or how fast I was going the next time I get pulled over...

-rvb

Good point. But, no I would not let them overload mags or use an improper gun for the division. It is just that I have asked shooters after they shoot a stage what they were loading. They would tell me and then ask "why?". I would say well it is important to make pf and they would either say or . Granted these are usually new shooters who are carrying their mags in their pockets. Maybe saying they don't care is not the right phrase. Maybe it is just to involved for them at their stage of the game.

[rvb]

Granted these are usually new shooters who are carrying their mags in their pockets. Maybe saying they don't care is not the right phrase. Maybe it is just to involved for them at their stage of the game.

That makes sense. I know for the first couple of years I shot factory ammo and just assumed it was good enough... Wasn't that I didn't care, but I had no control over how hot the ammo was.......

that's another good reason to make the chrono available, but not required. When I was new, I wish I had known enough to ask someone to bring one to a match. I remember biting my fingernails at my first IDPA major as my WWB went over the chrono...

-rvb

[bbbean]

Besides I think many local shooters only shoot local matches, and it's not that they are cheating, I just don't think they care if they make power factor. I know for a fact there are folks shooting local matches that don't even know what the PF requirements are. They are just shooting for fun mostly. Those few who actually travel to majors and are competetive will have chronos. I'm sure there are always a few, but I am not convinced the sport is full of cheaters.

+1!

This is particularly true when you consider some commercial ammo can run below power factor (AA, WWB, S&B & PD have all run minor in one of my guns). Do we really want to penalize a new shooter who only comes to a handful of local club matches, and bought commercial ammo for the fact that his ammo runs at PF=163? I know that rules are rules, and if he opts to go to a major, then he needs to play by the same rules as everyone else. But I don't think a $100-400 chrono should be a piece of required equipment for a shooter who doesn't relaod, and only makes it down to the local range once every month or two.

On the other hand, I do think that in a perfect world, affiliated clubs would have the tools on hand to help shooters get into compliance. Setting up a chrono once or twice a year and having a SS Box, accurate scale, and mag gauges on hand should be a service the club would provide for members and local shooters. Just think how many threads there are here before major matches from people trying to figure out if their gear and ammo is, in fact legal.

My impression is that most shooters want to be legal. They may only want to be legal by a few FPS, but I don't believe many shooters intentionally run ammo or gear that falls short of the minimum.

[Nik Habicht]

I have also been to majors in the past where you give your 8 rd sample but when you walk up RO grabs a mag on your belt. New rulebook spells out procedures that prevent most of this as Not allowed. Kind of a bummer

My Read of Appendix C2 still allows for random and additional collection of ammo to test.....

[BSeevers]

I have also been to majors in the past where you give your 8 rd sample but when you walk up RO grabs a mag on your belt. New rulebook spells out procedures that prevent most of this as Not allowed. Kind of a bummer

My Read of Appendix C2 still allows for random and additional collection of ammo to test.....

The way I read it is you must first collect 8 and test everybody, then can do random and additional tests. That's what holds up a club match chrono stage.

When we just needed one rd to make major, declared bullet weight, you could do "wham bam" testing easier.

I'm really surprised how many people want to allow locals to claim major n shoot minor. Or worse shoot below minor. So magwells and 22 rds n Prod? Ports in Limited? Now a brand new shooter I'm not running them off.

Heres what I have seen in the sport. If you don't teach people the rules they get "bent" when "the tyrant MD at that club that follows the rules" follows the rules, or when they get bumped to Open or minored at their first state match.

I have seen very little factory ammo not make power but I am sure in some guns it could not. We load DOWN below "combat loads" in general. (Open Excluded)

Edited May 10, 2010 by BSeevers

[jar]

I have seen very little factory ammo not make power but I am sure in some guns it could not. We load DOWN below "combat loads" in general. (Open Excluded)

Cheap steel cased import ammo can be marginal sometimes. Also, nearly all factory 38 special ball ammo is sub-minor. Doesn't come up much in USPSA, but it does in IDPA.

[G-ManBart]

Too much time and effort. If the match director suspects someone of really cheating they can always set up a chrono at a local match to find out for sure. I've actually seen a medium sized match where they announced there would be a chrono stage, but it wasn't actually used. The threat was enough to get people to ensure they're making PF. R,

[Schutzenmeister]

We have been toying with the idea to incorporate one into a regular match at some of our different local clubs. Not as a chrono stage but as part of a COF. You could avoid a chrono stage (but why would you), but hard to avoid if it is a part of a COF.

No announcement that there is one, you just show up and it happens to be there.

You can avoid it, but you will have your scores removed from the match results ... [C2, #42.]

[Tom D]

I have also been to majors in the past where you give your 8 rd sample but when you walk up RO grabs a mag on your belt. New rulebook spells out procedures that prevent most of this as Not allowed. Kind of a bummer

My Read of Appendix C2 still allows for random and additional collection of ammo to test.....

C2 #29. It is recommended that ammunition be collected from competitors as randomly

as is possible to insure that the collected ammunition accurately

matches the ammunition the competitor is actually using in competition.

Not only allows it but recomends it.

The way I read this the RO can take ammo from the shooters bag, mags or pockets if they have any there.

Tom