Best course of action when encountering illegal stage?

[Pro2AInPA]

At a level I USPSA match, what's the best course of action to take if you come up to a stage that is illegal per USPSA rules?

Edited April 9, 2010 by Pro2AInPA

[Jake Di Vita]

Quote the rule to the MD/RM.

I personally don't really care at a level 1 match...(as long as the stage isn't unsafe)

[Flatland Shooter]

Quote the rule to the MD/RM.

I personally don't really care at a level 1 match...(as long as the stage isn't unsafe)

At a Level 1 match, if we have a group of newer shooters, we like to explain how this stage is "different" from the requirements of a Level 2 or 3 match. The use of "invisible walls", i.e requiring the shooter to engage a target from a designated point rather that true freestyle "shoot'em as you see them", is an example.

Illegal stages are tolerated but unsafe stages are not.

Bill

[Dan Hefta]

Quote the rule to the MD/RM.

I personally don't really care at a level 1 match...(as long as the stage isn't unsafe)

I agree with Jake, however they should comply with the rules. This is one of the issues I have with weekly league matches and new shooters attending these matches, a lot of rules are overlooked and the new shooters are lead to believe that this is how all of the matches are run. Then they show up at a weekend match and get DQed or overwelmed.

[BayouSlide]

Quote the rule to the MD/RM.

I personally don't really care at a level 1 match...(as long as the stage isn't unsafe)

I agree with Jake, however they should comply with the rules. This is one of the issues I have with weekly league matches and new shooters attending these matches, a lot of rules are overlooked and the new shooters are lead to believe that this is how all of the matches are run. Then they show up at a weekend match and get DQed or overwelmed.

Well put, Dan. I was having a similar discussion with someone just this morning. You head down at slippery slope when you start picking and choosing which rules to follow and which to ignore.

The rules already allow latitude on COFs that are legal at Level I, but not above.

Curtis

[Flexmoney]

Best course of action...

Lead by example. Start designing and submitting stages for your local match. Be at the range when the gate opens to help and make sure that the stage gets built correctly. Be there to tear it down, put away the props and see to it that the range is in better shape than when you got there. (so that you can learn of any hiccups in the design that might make things go more smoothly)

The rule book applies to all matches...no matter the level. Section 1 of the rule book has some specific Level I exemptions, but they are not as free wheeling as many like to believe.

That said, experienced shooters can often find some things that might be off. If you can get the Range Master to address them before the shooting starts...all the better. If not...well, some things might not be worth arbitrating to throw a stage out over.

[Nik Habicht]

Flex is on the right track. I agree with everything he said....

And every once in a while, if you're building, shooting, and tearing down all in the same day, things just stack up against you. I know we once spent more than two hours trying to help an experienced designer/builder put up a very complicated stage, only to finally have to change the stage description to "On start signal, open door and engage all targets from the door threshhold." It was a ~ 30 round field course -- shot from one position....

Nobody wanted it to be that way, but we ran out of time, so once the movers were working, we simply rolled with it. Legal? No. Fun? It was different. We wouldn't attempt it again without having a full day to build it and to bury the activator cables.....

I'll also point out that new stage designers need to be mentored -- and that mentoring often needs to be gentle to keep from turning them off. Safety issues must be fixed, issues of legality, best practices, may be fixed -- but if there's a bunch, maybe not all at once. Fortunately this is a self-correcting problem, as motivated stage designers get better as they put up more stages....

Talk to the MD/RM as soon as possible. Ideally have a solution/fix -- MDs/RMs are typically busy already on matchday, so if you present the problem with a solution and can implement the solution there's a greater likelihood of the fix occurring. If there's a recurring problem at a particular club, contact your Section Coordinator, so that he can help....

[Aristotle]

Best course of action...

Lead by example. Start designing and submitting stages for your local match. Be at the range when the gate opens to help and make sure that the stage gets built correctly. Be there to tear it down, put away the props and see to it that the range is in better shape than when you got there. (so that you can learn of any hiccups in the design that might make things go more smoothly)

The rule book applies to all matches...no matter the level. Section 1 of the rule book has some specific Level I exemptions, but they are not as free wheeling as many like to believe.

That said, experienced shooters can often find some things that might be off. If you can get the Range Master to address them before the shooting starts...all the better. If not...well, some things might not be worth arbitrating to throw a stage out over.

spot on.

[usmc1974]

Quote the rule to the MD/RM.

I personally don't really care at a level 1 match...(as long as the stage isn't unsafe)

+1 Just shoot it.

[p2000lefty]

Excellent advice all! Speak softly and carry a big solution. Please don't discourage stage designers. I often have designs that I bring to the match only to find out that in real life they are illegal and sometimes dangerous. Fortunately, I have many experienced RO's and a CRO to help me make the necessary changes. I also learn from it and try not to make the same mistake twice. Because I give the set up crews artistic freedom to interpret my intentions when they build the stage, I walk all stages as they are completed, as a shooter, RO, and from downrange to look for potential problems.

If you are just going to bark, sulk and complain, don't shoot level one matches. If you have never designed a stage... put up or shut up, try a 32 round field course. It is a lot harder than it seems, unless you want to shoot variations of el Presidente all day.

Nurture and encourage and an average match can evolve into an awesome match. Remember it is a place that you go to relax and enjoy your sport.

[Graham Smith]

I'm all for rules but isn't it also the case that, try as they might, some local clubs just don't have the resources to build very complicated stages? They have to work with the props they have and do the best they can. Sometimes that means they have to designate an arbitrary shooting position or specify that "all walls extend to the ground" or some other such tricks. It's that or dumb down the stages.

[Rob D]

I'm all for rules but isn't it also the case that, try as they might, some local clubs just don't have the resources to build very complicated stages? They have to work with the props they have and do the best they can. Sometimes that means they have to designate an arbitrary shooting position or specify that "all walls extend to the ground" or some other such tricks. It's that or dumb down the stages.

That definitely happens, but there are clubs that have no issues with props and still like to bend the rules. I shot a match about two months ago where I had to fire 12 rounds from a single prone positions. Since I shoot production, this made for a really annoying prone reload. The club has plenty props, the MD just wanted to shoot 12 rounds prone instead of 8.

I just shoot the stage and go on. If I had time to be there early enough for setup, I would feel like I had the right to say something, but since I don't, I don't.

[Flexmoney]

Speak softly and carry a big solution.

Ha....I like that line a lot.

[VegasOPM]

As an MD, I would ask the RO's and more experienced shooters on the first squad to shoot the stage to point out any issues before they start shooting. Usually when that happens I will ask them to amend the stage description to make it legal (if possible). Typically a minor change in wording will make it legal for a Club Match. If it is illegal and either can't be changed or another squad has shot it prior to finding out the mistake, I ask that everyone shoots the stage as described in the stage description (as long as it is safe)- and let me know what I did wrong. I have had to throw out stages in Club matches because one squad chose to shoot it in a different manner than the description because it is illegal (or in one case, because the "experienced shooter" on the squad was going by an old rule book- so a legal stage was thrown out).

Not to beat a dead horse, but I have never knowingly put out a USPSA stage that is illegal ("fun stages" are USPSA illegal- but enjoyable and do not figure into the final results). I have however, spent my time designing a stage that I felt my shooters would enjoy- then I showed up hours early to set it up- then I struck it and scored it. Along with buying the targets, tape, fixing props and stands and doing everything else that goes into being an MD. That being said, I have been known to miss a detail or two in the rule book. I do appreciate constructive criticism and a rule number. Yet again, if you are not willing to help and prefer to sabotage my hard work- feel free to stay home.

[Cherryriver]

There's different kinds of wrong and dancing around the not-so-crucial ones is a fine balancing act for a program or match director needing to keep peace among his volunteers.

Not wanting to be the only guy there setting up, I want to keep enthusiasm high.

However, if it's a safety thing, then, just stand there and refuse to move.

I went to a new IDPA director's match a while ago that required taking a knee behind a four-foot barricade and firing at a set of targets, two of which were stacked vertically- and the head shots were going right over the club's lowish berm towards several suburban-style housing developments.

Worse, I was in the second squad to hit the stage. Bad thinking about it.

A couple of years ago we had a stage done up by one of our stage directors (we have a one-person/one-bay thing going that's working out nicely) that included a, shall we say, controversial element with a swinger in a port with steel behind. It was just over the line in "illegal" territory, in that there was no way to really score it perfectly with the shoot-through thing.

However, it was also one of the most popular and talked-about stages we did that year; everyone loved it, and everyone agreed it was great fun.

Now, it might have been my fault for not preventing the "illegal" element, but I didn't. I took quite a beating here on the Forum for allowing it, and perhaps I deserved it.

But, we all had a riot and no one was in danger. And putting down the designer could well have cost me a crew that did good stages a couple of times a year.

Harder call, that one.

Somewhere between nine rounds from a single view/position and a steel silhouette two feet away from the muzzle is a very broad spectrum of "wrong".

Apart from safety, think of the people...

[pjb45]

We had one this weekend at our local match. 20+ shots from a 3 by 3 box. I whined to the guy who set up the stage. He just laughed at me, luckily he was a good friend. I was shooting single stack so I had a billon reloads to do. We just shot it anyway.

[Fireant]

I guess I really need to take a calm my ass down pill in the future then. When I drive 1.5 hours + one way to get to a level I USPSA match I expect it to follow the rule book and have legal stages. When I decide to go to a non USPSA match I make that decision knowing the rules could be spotty at best. I was at a level I match once that required me to have 5 mags to finish the stage, I just happened to be shooting limited minor and only had 3 with me. I should never be required to need that many mags shooting limited and be told if I don't like it then don't shoot it. I run a local match and spend every night the week leading up to the match designing stages that are legal, so it really gets my blood presure up when another MD will not take the steps to fix the problem. Seeing everybody's comments makes me think I should just be quiet and let it go. Being the rule follower I am, that is going to take some work so bear with me(that's for the locals that might read this).

[HotRodZilla]

We had one this weekend at our local match. 20+ shots from a 3 by 3 box. I whined to the guy who set up the stage. He just laughed at me, luckily he was a good friend. I was shooting single stack so I had a billon reloads to do. We just shot it anyway.

You did TWO reloads you big baby. I had to do one, so it's not like the advantage was that great. However, I will concede that yes, the stage another guy and I set up on Saturday was illegal. One of our berms was full of mud and water, and there were like 5 people present to start setting up four stages in about an hour. Two of us were asked to set up a quick stage in half a berm.

There wasn't much time to come up with something fun in a small space. I didn't want to only shoot 8 rounds, so we added a barrel to shoot through, some barrels to shoot around, and made it all come from one shooting box. 22 rounds total with 6 steel targets. We had to be careful that rounds shot in either one of those stages did not damage the props in the adjecent stage. Illegal? Hell yes. Safe? Yes. Was it fun? I thought so.

The comment was made that if so and so had been there that person would have had the stage thrown out. From a level one match? Really? Who cares? If there were guns or prizes on the table, I could see people being upset. If there were illegal stages being set up by the same people every match, I could see being upset; but that is clearly not the case at our club. We made do with what we had in the time we had and still had fun.

In all seriousness, I did mention that if anyone there did not like the stage and was sure they could do much better, next match they should show up earlier and set one up themselves. Problem solved.

[JThompson]

Asone of the few that shows to setup, it doesn't take any longer to setup a legal stage than it does anu illegal one.... setup a legal one, "problem solved."

I'm not meaning to be an ass, but if you are shooting USPSA then you need to have legal stages.

JT

[Nik Habicht]

However, I will concede that yes, the stage another guy and I set up on Saturday was illegal. One of our berms was full of mud and water, and there were like 5 people present to start setting up four stages in about an hour. Two of us were asked to set up a quick stage in half a berm.

There wasn't much time to come up with something fun in a small space. I didn't want to only shoot 8 rounds, so we added a barrel to shoot through, some barrels to shoot around, and made it all come from one shooting box. 22 rounds total with 6 steel targets. We had to be careful that rounds shot in either one of those stages did not damage the props in the adjecent stage. Illegal? Hell yes. Safe? Yes. Was it fun? I thought so.

Asone of the few that shows to setup, it doesn't take any longer to setup a legal stage than it does anu illegal one.... setup a legal one, "problem solved."

I'm not meaning to be an ass, but if you are shooting USPSA then you need to have legal stages.

JT

That changes the story a little.....

Sometimes score sheets are already printed and berm availability/pit access is reduced at the last minute.....

Occasionally we get hosed by weather and lack of drainage in the pits -- we all either go home, or we try and build as many legal stages as possible, and work around the problem in the remaining pits. Is it ideal? No --- but it often beats not shooting a match. If it's an occasional occurrence, and one that's related to something like weather, I can live with it. From experience, I can tell you, that most of the competitors at a match will put up with it too --- and that you can even grow attendance, if you get it perfectly right most (most months out of the year) of the time.....

[Ben Stoeger]

whoops

Edited April 27, 2010 by Ben Stoeger

[ed_henry]

I have at times set up what could be an illegal stage but still very safe.

I had a sore back and was not up to big steel hard cover so I used a no shoot with a star behind it.

If you hit the no shoot and got the hit you got both. Big deal!

It was a hit as far as the shooter were concerned.

I have designed and/or shot a number of stages that were level 0. I still enjoy them and try not to set them up but there are times that they are difficult to fix.

ed

[Sam]

The best course of action is to shoot it to the best of your ability and then forget about it.

[Danva]

I think that during set up is a GREAT time to point out problems with stages.

I also think pointing out problems on match day politely and shooting the stage as well as you can goes farther than being a "range lawyer".

One of the great joys in this sport is designing, constructing and having 40-50 people shoot your designed stage! More shooters should try it.

Dan C

[Cherryriver]

At a recent club match, we had four quite large field courses set up. At the very beginning of the match, the squad leaders from stage 2 came to me, and, smiling, said there was a problem with the stage- it wasn't legal because an element in the WSB called for firing from a specific pair of points at the start of the stage.

There were three experienced match directors in that squad. They asked my permission to fix it with a simple words-and-fault lines fix that actually made the stage more fun, and did so before the first shot was fired.

The stage had been done by my best stage director (we use a one-guy/one-stage regime) and the error simply got past me due to a lack of diligence on my part.

The fix was done, the stage director actually liked it better fixed, everybody kept smiling and having fun, and all was well.

That's the ideal outcome.

Last year, I went to a match at a downstate club I'm not familiar with some 150 miles away. A nice morning for a motorcycle ride, if you like 48 degrees with heavy overcast and 30-knot crosswinds with some sprinkles.

The regular match director group was away at a major and had left the match in the hands of an IDPA guy with little match production experience of any kind and a couple of helpers of modest skill.

As a USPSA match, it was, well, not that good.

Me, as someone who has made mistakes like the one above and worse, I just geared up, shot the match as if it was a good practice session, and enjoyed meeting and hanging with a new bunch of guys.

And the sun came out on the (long) way home.

Now, about those other times when I've been stormed by angry competitors insisting "illegal!" as if their entire weekend had been laid waste to by pillaging barbarians...

I guess that's what match directors and producers get paid the big bucks for.