.223, Varget & AR-15's

[rr4406pak]

Just made up some .223 loads with Varget for the coming year's matches.

I'm using a

Bullet: 68gr Hornady BTHP

Load: 25gr of Varget

Primer: Remington 6 1/2 primer

Crimp: with Lee factory crimp die.

OAL: is about 2.262 to 2.269.

Sizer: Dillon full carbide die.

Press: RCBS IV single stage.

The loads shoot fantastic at 200yds out of the 20" 1:9 twist Bushmaster and I'm very happy but should I be worried about this "ring" I'm getting on the bullets during the seating process?

Also, should I be seating these bullets deeper to increase reliability & feeding? I'm just afraid I'm compressing the powder too much already.

I don't see any signs of overpressure on the primers after firing.

Let me know what you all think.

Thanks.

[rtr]

The loads shoot fantastic at 200yds out of the 20" 1:9 twist Bushmaster and I'm very happy but should I be worried about this "ring" I'm getting on the bullets during the seating process?

No that's just left there by the seating die.

Also, should I be seating these bullets deeper to increase reliability & feeding? I'm just afraid I'm compressing the powder too much already.

If they work then don't worry about it, that length is a bit on the long side, but like I said if they run in your gun/mags then don't monkey with it.

[Religious Shooter]

IMHO I think:

They are too long.

You need to get a different seating die or modify the seater. I think if you just broke the sharp edges that contact the bullet you won't have that much of a pronounced ring.

But if it already works for you...

(NOTE: I meant seating die.)

Edited April 10, 2010 by Religious Shooter

[RiggerJJ]

I use same bullet, same sizer, same amount of Varget (BTW, there is nothing wrong with the Dillon Carbide size die, I don't see how it would be causing the ring on the bullet anyway). I load mine to 2.245 for my ARs. Used to go 2.250 but one of our barrels didn't like em so I shortened to 2.245. The load is slightly compressed, but I have no problems with it in LC brass.

I would bring em down to 2.250 so they don't jam in the mag.

I too would be concerned with the ring the seater is putting on the bullet, but it doesn't seem to be affecting your accuracy... I use a Redding Competition seat die, and it puts a just bairly visable ring on the bullet but not as pronounced as yours...

JJ

[Taildraggerdave]

I got the same ring on basically the same setup...

Don't seem to have it on new brass but it (the ring) is definitely there on fired and trimmed brass.

Dave

[D.Hayden]

I got that ring with the Hornady's too. I know others that have as well. It just seems to be that bullet profile with the seater. I think one time another shooter found a different lot number that didn't do it..

I've used Dillons and the Redding Comp seaters - can't remember which one caused the problem.

No issues with Sierra 69s or Noslers 69s. It didn't affect the accuracy, but really bugged me.. lol

[rr4406pak]

So you guys think that the ring is caused NOT by the resistance of compressing the powder inside the case, but by the resistance of the case neck??

I did not think there was enough room in the case to seat down to 2.25. I thought I'd be going into scary territory seating these bullets that far into the case. How short can you seat these things before over compression gets to be an issue. (I thought for sure this ring was a definite sign over over compression of the powder).

[D.Hayden]

Just for me... my loads are not compressed.. and agian for some reason, only those bullets..

[RiggerJJ]

Hodgdon manual shows something like 27.0gn of Varget as max load, and says its is compressed. (duhh...no kidding?) I've put 27.0gn in a case before just to see how full it is (granted, it was a LC case which has less volume than most) and it comes up the neck about 3/4 way to the top. I put a bullet on it and seated it at 2.250, no problem. (pulled the bullet later, just wanted to see...) didn't notice the seater ring being any more pronounced.

Yea, you can get to a point to where the powder will not compress any further, but with 25.0 Varget at 2.250 you are not close to it at all.

again, with what I use (LC brass, Varget, 68gn Horn HPBT) 25.0gn at 2.250 is only just slightly compressed. I have had no problems.

I think the ring you have on your bullets is directly caused by your seating die, not the resistance of the powder.

jj

[Phil G]

Try seating a bullet in a case that has been sized but that has no powder. That should tell you if it is the seater or the compressed powder charge. If it is your seater, then remove the seater plug that is contacting the bullet and "break" the sharp edge on the plug that is contacting the bullet. I have used a dremel tool with a "bullet shaped" polishing point to eliminate the "ring" that the seater plug leaves.

Phil G

[gm iprod]

I agree with above,

The Hornady projectile is a little softer in the jacket than the Sierra 69 and my set up after polishing the seater stem still leaves a mark, just a lot less pronounced than previous. Not tried Hornady 68 since.

Depending on the internal case capacity this load is close to being compressed more than I like. Remington and Winchester cases should be fine, but do not use LApua or Norma cases for that load, you may not get all the Varget in.

[jem375]

Are you sure the Lee crimping die is not the problem with the rings.??

[DougCarden]

The crimp die will not touch the bullet. It is the seater.....

DougC

[rr4406pak]

I did a test and seated the 68gr bullet without any powder in the case. Result = no ring.

When I fill the case up with 25gr of Varget I then get the ring (as shown above).

It is hard for me to believe that there is no compression going on with this load. There has to be resistance, and thus compression, going on in the case to dent the bullet like this.

Question is: is this safe? If not, what are the consequences of an over compressed load (besides these dents of course).

Thanks again.

[Larry White]

Those loads are aful long. Make sure they work in ALL your mags.----------Larry

Edited April 15, 2010 by Larry White

[kamikaze1a]

You might try the Forster Blue Ribbon powder funnel with long drop tube or something similar. I tried tapping the shell to settle the powder with marginal results. Using this long drop tube funnel, I found the powder level was noticeably lower...and it fit the 223 shell just fine.

[Religious Shooter]

It's definitely compressed. You should be hearing a crunching sound when you seat the bullet.

[BlueOvalBruin]

I wonder if the brass is getting oversized and the case capacity is reduced.

[fastshooter03]

With all the lot to lot variations on Varget I've heard about over the years, I wouldn't be surprised if that powder takes up more volume per grain than some other lot.

Quick OAL fix would be to use C-Products stainless mags. THey have more room for the OAL and I think you can load at least .030" longer but I haven't gotten the exact number.

That load seems a bit stout for 3-gun and a 20" Barrel.

I know it's shooting good for you but you might want to try something a little faster burning like Benchmark, 2230, etc and reduce the load a little bit.

From my experience Varget is a little slow and velocity suffers in shorter than 24" barrels compared to some of the faster burning powders.

My Redding benchrest seater die will also ring the bullets from compressing the powder.

The ring won't affect anything so don't worry about it too much. I've shot dented bullets at 600 yds and still hit the paper.

Nick

[el pres]

The rings are ok and Varget loves to be compressed. With Varget the more compressed the more consistant the load. I run 25.5grs under and 69gr SMK (no ring, harder jacket) but my Hornady 75gr has a ring at 24.8grs (softer jacket)..

Also the your specific combonation of bullet profile and seater die are to blame. If it drives you crazy then change bullets or take a Dremel to the inside of your die where the ring contact points are. Increase the surfcae area that touches the bullet.

Edited April 16, 2010 by P.Pres

[rr4406pak]

Do you think reducing the powder charge to 24.5gr or 24gr Varget would make a big difference in velocity/accuaracy?

This way I'd be gaining more case room and lowering the compression so I can reduce the overall length.

Hopefully a grain shouldn't make that big a difference.

I know I'll have to test to be sure, but if what fastshooter03 says is true (about the load being "stout" already), I should have room to lessen the load and keep the good accuracy.

[Graham Smith]

OK, this is going to be a really silly question but, here goes.

In the research and limited testing I have done, it would seem to indicate that out to 200yds, there is little benefit in going with a 68-70gr bullet as opposed to a 55gr one. And a 55gr bullet over AA2230 is going to give you more FPS than a 69gr over Varget without any significant loss of accuracy and is a lot cheaper in the bargain.

Or does this have to do with PF? In which case, please ignore my babbling.

[Carlos]

Varget replacement powder that meters easily: does anyone remember a SHOT show announcement about such a powder?

Thought I read it was essentially identical to Varget except for the change to the grain size to make metering (especially for 223 & progressive presses) more consistent?

What was the powder & is it available yet?

[el pres]

Do you think reducing the powder charge to 24.5gr or 24gr Varget would make a big difference in velocity/accuaracy?

This way I'd be gaining more case room and lowering the compression so I can reduce the overall length.

Hopefully a grain shouldn't make that big a difference.

I know I'll have to test to be sure, but if what fastshooter03 says is true (about the load being "stout" already), I should have room to lessen the load and keep the good accuracy.

I forgot to mention I load the 69 smk with 25.5grs @ 2.25, Hodgdon max is 26.0 "C" (compressed) @ 2.235

Downloading is alright for shots out to 150yds but you'll need to possibly rezero everytime

you change loads and readjust the rifle if your running an adjustble gas system...

Edited April 16, 2010 by P.Pres

[gose]

I got a similar ring on my 69gr SMKs when using a compressed load of vv140. However, when testing, I could not see any degradation in accuracy. The hottest load with the most severe rings was actually even the most accurate.

I wouldn't worry about it.