Half cock or fully decocked for production division?

[Philo_Beddoe]

This may be a "default to the manufacturers reccommendation" The CZ has very specific instructions for putting the non decocker version is safe mode,

Load the pistol. Grasp the grip, POINT IN A SAFE DIRECTION. With thumb and

index finger of the other hand hold the hammer firmly (Fig. 5), pull the trigger

and release the hammer slowly and gradually until it rests on the firing pin

stop. Release the trigger.

notice it says until it rests on firing pin, so with this gun, half cock not only doesnt abide by our rules, it is contrtary to the manufacturers reccommendation.

I think we need a change in the rule though. What about a phrase along the lines, of, A safe mechanical condition of readiness apropriate for the design,

I honestly dont see the issue, We allow XD's (legally SA's) and very short travel partially cocked striker fired guns in production let the hammer guys start in a safe way apropriate to the design, An M9 beretta would be decocked, a CZ would be cocked and locked, does it really matter ? Go to any IDPA match and look at the scores between SSP and ESP guys, there is very little to any spread. You have striker guns winning in ESP, If cocked and locked was such an advantage you wouldnt see that.

Load the pistol. Grasp the grip, POINT IN A SAFE DIRECTION. With thumb press on

the grooved area (thumb piece) of the hammer, pull the trigger and release the hammer

slowly ahead (Fig. 6) until it rests on the action or safety thumb of the hammer. Release the

trigger

http://www.czub.cz/zbrojovka/cz-manual/Instruction-Manual-CZ-75-SP-01.pdf

This manual from the CZUB website says to "release the hammer slowly ahead until it rests on the action (firing pin?) or "safety thumb of the hammer". "Safety thumb of the hammer" is probably poorly translated Czech to English for Safety notch of the hammer AKA half cock.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Philo_Beddoe

[Philo_Beddoe]

I don't like the thumb safeties on the CZ. I would much rather start DA than use the thumb safeties.

The ability to run the gun cocked and locked on the reasons is was drawn to CZ's before I started doing USPSA.

[Philo_Beddoe]

The way I read the owners manual and the USPSA rule book, I dont agree with setting the hammer on half cock and neither does the manufacturer. I just dont think the gun is designed that way any more than a 1911 is designed to have the hammer on half cock, Its simply an added safety if the sear fails at the cocked and locked position. The guns were never intended to be put in that position on purpose. I am gonna assume the CZ has an inertia firing pin thats shorter than the firing pin channel so that once lowered there isnt any way for a blow to the back of the hammer to ignite a round.

The proper way to holster a CZ with a round in the chamber is either cocked and locked, or hammer all the way down regardless of the rules, or emails.

How is that true?

Load the pistol. Grasp the grip, POINT IN A SAFE DIRECTION. With thumb press on

the grooved area (thumb piece) of the hammer, pull the trigger and release the hammer

slowly ahead (Fig. 6) until it rests on the action or safety thumb of the hammer. Release the

trigger.

http://www.czub.cz/zbrojovka/cz-manual/Instruction-Manual-CZ-75-SP-01.pdf

"rests on the action" is most likely the firing pin

"safety thumb of the hammer" is most likly poorly translated "safety notch of the hammer"

Also, if the gun was not meant to be decocked to half cock, why do all the models equipped to decockers do that very thing?

Edited June 22, 2011 by Philo_Beddoe

[Philo_Beddoe]

I don't quite understand why it matters what X manufacturer says you should do or the procedure that Y manufacturer gives.

IMO the rule books says hammer FULLY down. That means, in MY OPINION, even if the gun is equipped with a decocker, if the decocker does not lower the hammer FULLY down (the place where it would be if you dry fired it) then the shooter needs to manually lower the hammer. This might be a PITA for some but it is, of course, a trade off for easier shots after the first one.

There is an NROI ruling that says on decocker equipped guns, wherever the decocker leaves the hammer satisfies the term "fully decocked".

I understand but that doesn't answer why it matters what X manufacturer thinks. either it has a d/c and you d/c it or you lower it manually. just do it or shoot another gun if you're not comfortable complying with the rules.

USPSA rules are written to make the sport as safe as possible, that means tailoring the rules to how manufactuers design their handguns. Do you think a rule requiring deocking the hammer would make much sense in the single stack divison? The Revolver, single stack,and production divison were basically created to cater to the popularity of certain handguns (glock > production, 1911 > single stack, revolvers) with the shooting public. The rules in those divison are tailored to those style of handguns.

Heck even Voigt himself says so in this video at 2:15

Edited June 22, 2011 by Philo_Beddoe

[ck1]

Also, if the gun was not meant to be decocked to half cock, why do all the models equipped to decockers do that very thing?

Because the decocker guns have FPB's.

I read up a lot on this subject earlier and it seems the non-FPB-equipped pistols (like Shadows or pre-B 75's) like any other inertial firing pin designs were never designed to be carried or holstered when at half-cock.

The half-cock notch in a non-FPB inertial firing pin gun design is intended to be and included as a safety feature and should be treated as such, not as an alternate carry/start option.

[sperman]

I don't like the thumb safeties on the CZ. I would much rather start DA than use the thumb safeties.

The ability to run the gun cocked and locked on the reasons is was drawn to CZ's before I started doing USPSA.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the thumb safeties on a CZ. I'm just used to the 1911 thumb safety feel and location. The CZ is different, and I would have a hard time adjusting.

[Joe4d]

It matters because they built the gun, and specify the condition of readiness appropriate to the design. Which in the CZ's case is not halfcocked.

I was bringing it up about a possible rule change. To allow a start in a position appropriate to the design. This wording would allow decocker pistols to start wherever the decocker left the hammer, striker guns to start partially cocked, and a CZ to start either cocked and locked or hammer all the way down.

[sofong]

I did an experiment just now and feel that I'm "safer" with hammer down than at half cock. (As a newbie here I can't post pics or links.) Lowering the hammer is the risky part. Hammer down should be ok.

The setup was to field strip my Shadow Target and set the action vertically on flat surface with the firing pin resting on a hex bit, a machined parallel flat. The bit took the place of the hammer down. The test was visual with no measurement needed. The firing pin is well back of the breech face. Given that the hammer spring is far stronger than the firing pin spring it should not be possible for a struck hammer to cause an AD with the hammer down. At half cock all bets are off. This was done with the normal firing pin. The optional extended firing pin may be another matter. I'll empirically test this with a squib load, primer set in empty case, and a plastic hammer and will report back.

[Nik Habicht]

Out of curiosity I called CZ-USA today and spoke to a gunsmith. He stated that lowering the hammer to the firing pin on the shadow is less safe then lowering it to the half cock safety notch when placing the handgun in double action mode due to the lack of a firing pin block. He stated that a hard strike to the hammer while it is resting on the firing pin could cause an accidental discharge. So current USPSA rules for the production division are forcing their competitors to decock their handguns to double action mode in a manner that his not recommended by the manufactuer's gunsmiths.

Be careful what you ask for. You might just get the Shadow removed from the production list. The rules for USPSA production were around before CZ decided to remove the firing pin block. If having the hammer in the fully decocked position is unsafe, they should have installed a de-cocker on the gun.

Considering the gun is loaded in the holster for about 10 seconds per stage, and most of that time is spent standing still, I'm not too worried about the chance of an AD because the hammer is fully decocked.

I agree, pushing this isn't really necessary and could just make the situation worse on Shadow owners, I don't think any of us really care about whether or not the first shot happens from all the way down vs. half-cock enough to cause a fuss. If you're not comfortable with starting by manually decocking to hammer all the way down CZ makes many guns with decockers and there's lots of other platforms to run.

Besides, your 75B has a FPB, so as long as you let go of the trigger before you set the hammer down you've got nothing to worry about.

1) I sold the 75b and now run a shadow.

2) You have to continually press the trigger to lower the hammer past the half cock notch which means you pretty much have to press the trigger until the hammer rest on the firing pin.

3) Almost all open, single stack, and limited guns lack a firing pin safety block. The CZ shadow is a safe gun it is even more safe when USPSA does not force silly rules on its operation.

4) The orginal non B version of the CZ 75 did not have a firing pin block either and has always been on the approved production list. The 85 combat has no FPB either.

JMHO

USPSA isn't forcing anything on you. You have choices. To shoot the gun in other divisions, or to pick a different gun of the lengthy list, or to comply with the rules....

[Nik Habicht]

Well, I think you do have a valid point... I just hope USPSA's answer doesn't make us all cringe.

That said, I don't totally agree with what you were told by the CZ gunsmith, as I've heard the exact opposite from another experienced gunsmith before from the point of view saying hammer down on the firing pin being considered less safe is in a way putting far too much faith in a shallow half-cock notch that was intended to catch a hammer falling from full-cock do to a sear/hammer failure, never to hold a hammer immobile (as in the case of a drop) and ignores the physics of how an inertial firing pin functions... so it's sort of subjective to how one looks at a given scenario for a potential mishap to occur, while holstered, or in superficial handling, it's maybe indeed a little safer to have the hammer not resting on the firing pin just in-case it were to take a blow square on the back of the hammer, but in contrast, if the pistol was to be dropped the hammer resting at half-cock would likely add to the potential danger as the hammer would not only have gravity but a fait amount of spring pre-load for some added drama...

At any rate, decocking a pistol manually is serious business whether to half-cock or to full rest, and anything less than adequate attention will result in a bad day... maybe that's as it should be, it'd be ok with Darwin .

Agreed. The response from the CZ gunsmith sounds like an opinion based on his knowledge of the gun, and not a fact proven by his empirical testing.

The one fact that does remain is that the rule says that the gun must be fully decocked. As an RO, until they change the rule, post the opinion in Front Sight, or add it to the rulings page on USPSA.org I'll be starting everyone with a non-decocker CZ in Production with the hammer all the way down.

Manufacturers, with their relatively deep pockets, are also always concerned about liability, whether real or perceived by a jury....

[spanky]

It matters because they built the gun, and specify the condition of readiness appropriate to the design. Which in the CZ's case is not halfcocked.

I was bringing it up about a possible rule change. To allow a start in a position appropriate to the design. This wording would allow decocker pistols to start wherever the decocker left the hammer, striker guns to start partially cocked, and a CZ to start either cocked and locked or hammer all the way down.

Then either petition to have the rules rewritten so it states that production guns start in the hammer-down position specified by the manufacturer or shoot a different gun.

[Philo_Beddoe]

Out of curiosity I called CZ-USA today and spoke to a gunsmith. He stated that lowering the hammer to the firing pin on the shadow is less safe then lowering it to the half cock safety notch when placing the handgun in double action mode due to the lack of a firing pin block. He stated that a hard strike to the hammer while it is resting on the firing pin could cause an accidental discharge. So current USPSA rules for the production division are forcing their competitors to decock their handguns to double action mode in a manner that his not recommended by the manufactuer's gunsmiths.

Be careful what you ask for. You might just get the Shadow removed from the production list. The rules for USPSA production were around before CZ decided to remove the firing pin block. If having the hammer in the fully decocked position is unsafe, they should have installed a de-cocker on the gun.

Considering the gun is loaded in the holster for about 10 seconds per stage, and most of that time is spent standing still, I'm not too worried about the chance of an AD because the hammer is fully decocked.

I agree, pushing this isn't really necessary and could just make the situation worse on Shadow owners, I don't think any of us really care about whether or not the first shot happens from all the way down vs. half-cock enough to cause a fuss. If you're not comfortable with starting by manually decocking to hammer all the way down CZ makes many guns with decockers and there's lots of other platforms to run.

Besides, your 75B has a FPB, so as long as you let go of the trigger before you set the hammer down you've got nothing to worry about.

1) I sold the 75b and now run a shadow.

2) You have to continually press the trigger to lower the hammer past the half cock notch which means you pretty much have to press the trigger until the hammer rest on the firing pin.

3) Almost all open, single stack, and limited guns lack a firing pin safety block. The CZ shadow is a safe gun it is even more safe when USPSA does not force silly rules on its operation.

4) The orginal non B version of the CZ 75 did not have a firing pin block either and has always been on the approved production list. The 85 combat has no FPB either.

JMHO

USPSA isn't forcing anything on you. You have choices. To shoot the gun in other divisions, or to pick a different gun of the lengthy list, or to comply with the rules....

Correct, USPSA is not forcing anything on me, however, do you not think that a division specifically created to give double and safe action handguns a place to be competitive should at least take into consideration the safety advice of manufacturers of said division approved handguns when it comes to creating the rules that govern the safety of the sport?

In my OPINION, if a production approved handgun is designed to be decocked to the firing pin, half cock, or both then rules should take that into account and any other safety consideration from other manufacturers of handguns on the approved list. This is why I believe we got the ruling we did on the decocker models. Once again I am just stating my opinion.

Also there is no doubt manufacturer recommendations have influenced USPSA rules. The rule prohibiting a cocked single action pistol from being holstered without the manual safety being applied is by no doubt influenced by the operating instructions of said pistols by the manufacturers. I dont think USPSA did a comparative study and had a number of shooters holster their cocked 1911s without the safety on to reach the conclusion that allowing competitors to do so would be a bad idea, manufacturer warnings and common sense were probably enough.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Philo_Beddoe

[Flexmoney]

Just for a point of reference, here is the IPSC (not USPSA) version of the same...:

8.1.2.4. If a handgun has a decocking lever, that alone must be used to

decock the handgun, without touching the trigger. If a handgun

does not have a decocking lever, the hammer must be safely

and manually lowered all the way forward (i.e. not just to a

"half-cock notch" or to another similar intermediary position).

And, this...from 8 years ago:

Trader,

OK, the Handgun Rules Committee (including John Amidon) is unanimous that, for the purposes of Production Division (both IPSC and USPSA), any handgun with an external hammer must be fully decocked. Hence intermediate positions such as on a "half-cock" notch or similar, are not acceptable.

This item will be specifically mentioned in the next rulebook, but you can take it as policy now.

Hope this removes any doubt.

[98sr20ve]

All this talk about the Manufactures Manual, firing pins, etc is just not important. If it has a decocker, you use the decocker. If it doesn't you use the trigger and you thumb to lower the hammer. If you can't do that safely get a different gun.

[Flexmoney]

Why would a gun on table start be any different than a holstered start?

Well...maybe just because I worked a stage at the recent A5 match that had a table start and it was fresh to my mind.

I might need to refresh, but for a loaded holstered gun, the rule reads "cocked"...where the set the gun down rule reads that it needs to be in the ready condition (hammer fully down). So, there might be some fuzziness between the two.

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer

cocked and the safety not applied.

[sperman]

I always assumed that once the buzzer went off, you could apply the thumb safety if you needed to holster the gun, or set it down.

The production rules only state the start condition of the pistol. They don't overide 8.1.x

8.1.2.3 "Selective action" chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied.

Special conditions: Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

ETA: Maybe I'm mis-understanding what you are saying.

Edited June 23, 2011 by sperman

[Flexmoney]

OK, let me see if I can communicate this properly...

Shooter ran a non-decocker model CZ in Production. It was a loaded gun on table start. He lowered the hammer to the "half-cock" notch. The official running him had him lower the hammer fully before starting him. Later, the official believed that he might have made the wrong call and should have DQ'ed the shooter. Per:

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or

unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded

or not.

Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of

fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other

stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section

8.1, or

You asked me how that was different than holstering a loaded gun.

The rule for holstering a loaded gun reads different:

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied.

One rule refers to the ready condition of the handgun, and the other refers to the gun being "cocked".

[Flexmoney]

I should add... I don't agree with the call for a DQ. I bumped up an older thread in the rules section on this topic, where I explain my view on it.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67849&st=60

[GeneBray]

All it takes is dry fire practice. I start all my dry fire with 5x20 reps of DA pull with the sights on a target. Trigger prep to a 1/2 to 1 lb remaining in the pull, and then continue the pull until the "shot" breaks. At 64 I'm getting slower that when younger. Nonetheless, my best draws are in the 1.0-1.1 sec range at 7-10 yds. Unfortunately, they are not the rule, but the exception. Just need more practice.

I haven't heard back yet from anyone here, but read the

Special conditions:

— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

on page 81 of the 2010 USPSA Handgun Rules at the end of Appendix D4. Been doing it wrong under the watchful eyes of the ROs. I forgive them as they are all Open shooters. Guess that I should go from a "D" back to a "U" and start again.

Stopped by the local indoor range and wow that's a looong, hard (4.2 lb) pull in DA. SA is sweet. I'll have to pick something easy for my shot, damn.

[GeneBray]

If shooting production, then the hammer must be fully down. If shooting in any other division (obviously except revolver) then hammer cocked and thumb safety on.

, , ,

And I totally agree with you, sir. Half cock, if feasible, should be the rule. Sigs decock to half cock. CZs with decockers decock to halfcock. I love Shadows, and I have one myself. I compete these days with a G34, but if I compete with my Shadow under the current rules I'll fully decock because that's what it says in the rule book. That's not my interpretation, that's what it literally says.

We've been screwing up then, hmmm. I'll have to ask my ROs and Match Director. I shoot a CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow Target which does not have the firing pin safety (the only 75 without) hammer safety only and have been starting cocked and locked and therefore single action. Lowering the hammer on a round, even to half cock position, is just waiting for an eventual thumb slip, AD and resultant DQ. A dropped pistol is dangerous with a safety on, hammer down just appears to be trouble looking for a place to happen.

I'll write them now and post their responses.

[Edit]: Now I'm really confused by reading the rules are different for SA and DA and the Shadow Target does both. Cocked and locked is what we've been doing and seems the safest.

From page 30.

8.1.2	Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 	"Single action" – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 	"Double action" – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de- cocked.

8.1.2.3 	"Selective action" – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

8.1.2.4 	With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term "safety" means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a "1911" genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter.

[GeneBray]

All modern firing pin type pistols that I am aware of use an inertial firing pin. Meaning fire pin does not protrude past the breach face. The hammer strikes the firing pin with enough force to overcome the firing pin spring tension and drive the firing pin past the breach face into the primer thus firing the round. Don't know enough about striker fired pistols but suspect they use an inertial firing pin too.

I did an experiment just now and feel that I'm "safer" with hammer down than at half cock. (As a newbie here I can't post pics or links.) Lowering the hammer is the risky part. Hammer down should be ok.

The setup was to field strip my Shadow Target and set the action vertically on flat surface with the firing pin resting on a hex bit, a machined parallel flat. The bit took the place of the hammer down. The test was visual with no measurement needed. The firing pin is well back of the breech face. Given that the hammer spring is far stronger than the firing pin spring it should not be possible for a struck hammer to cause an AD with the hammer down. At half cock all bets are off. This was done with the normal firing pin. The optional extended firing pin may be another matter. I'll empirically test this with a squib load, primer set in empty case, and a plastic hammer and will report back.

[GeneBray]

I asked this question before (I thought in this thread, but cannot find it): What is the functional difference between any CZ-75/85 variant without a decocker and the hammer lowered to the "Safety Stop" (the CZ nomenclature or half cock) vice a CZ-75 variant with a decocker and the hammer lowered to the "Safety Stop"? Do any of the parts in the decocker variants provide additional protection that prevents the hammer from coming off the half cock and striking the firing pin?

I know what the rules say, and I comply. I shoot a CZ-75 SP01. After 40k rnds, I have not had a AD while lowering the hammer.

A similar question is: Can I replace a SP01 slide which has a FPB it with with a SP01 Shadow slide which does not? If so, why do I have to have a FPB installed in a plain SP01 slide?

Just seems to me there are logic gaps in our current Production rules. That said, the rules are the rules so follow them.

[Philo_Beddoe]

I asked this question before (I thought in this thread, but cannot find it): What is the functional difference between any CZ-75/85 variant without a decocker and the hammer lowered to the "Safety Stop" (the CZ nomenclature or half cock) vice a CZ-75 variant with a decocker and the hammer lowered to the "Safety Stop"? Do any of the parts in the decocker variants provide additional protection that prevents the hammer from coming off the half cock and striking the firing pin?

I know what the rules say, and I comply. I shoot a CZ-75 SP01. After 40k rnds, I have not had a AD while lowering the hammer.

A similar question is: Can I replace a SP01 slide which has a FPB it with with a SP01 Shadow slide which does not? If so, why do I have to have a FPB installed in a plain SP01 slide?

Just seems to me there are logic gaps in our current Production rules. That said, the rules are the rules so follow them.

I dont think the decocker models have any additional safeties, why CZ designed the decocker to stop at half cock I do not know. I would assume to have the hammer off the firing pin.

Also I do not think you can simply throw on a shadow slide on a SP01 frame. The sp01 frame has the lifter that operates the firing pin block.

http://czcustom.com/shadow9mmtopend.aspx

[eerw]

Gene..

no function difference between a decocker at halfcock and a safety model at halfcock.

a SP01/75 Shadow top will fit on an a std SP01 frame. you can take out the lifter and replace with a spacer or install a pre B sear. or leave it. I'd take it out.

[SDM]

What's the difference, say on a Beretta, between the trigger pull at half cock vs. manually, fully decocked? On my 75B, for me at least, there would be a definite advantage to starting from half cock and I'm curious if this is the case with other guns.