Talk me out of Dillon

[Chris Spiess]

Because most of the Dillon users are so satisfied, when you ask the question “Which is better?”, you get swamped with comments like, "The Hornady L-n-L is Junk!" If you asked if they have ever loaded on the L-n-L and 99.9% said no.

That certainly hits the nail on the head - and very directly. Most folks who say Dilion is the bomb and you're stupid if you don't buy one, or that L-N-Ls are crap haven't used one, know anyone who has one, or even seen one in action. I was actually at a match once having problems with some ammunition and someone actually told me my problem was that I didn't use a Dilion press to load. Asked if he knew anything about a L-N-L, the answer was of course, No. I believe the opinions of those in this group who have a measure of experience with both red and blue (Waldog and CocoBolo in particular) are the most valuable.

I learned as a kid on my dad's 550. I own and love an a L-N-L now. When I bought my press several years ago, it was significantly less expensive than a 650. These days, the price difference between the two with a case feeder is not all that much. I have considered purchasing a second press, and have seriously considered getting a 650 this time around. As a matter of fact, if prices were then what they are now, I probably would have a 650 and not a L-N-L. Regardless, I certainly do not regret getting a L-N-L. I do like the Hornady powder measure more than the Dilion design. I also prefer the individual die bushings to the Dilion tool head design, it makes setup and maintenance easier IMO.

My dad's 550 is probably almost 25 years old. Parts for life and excellent customer service do certainly come into play with a Dilion purchase. A while back his priming system finally got completely worn out. A call to Dilion netted him all the parts to basically rebuild the priming system, all at no charge. That said, however, I have always had excellent response from Hornady as well. I attempted to purchase a couple of small case feeder parts to tinker with in an attempt to improve how my feeder handles .40S&W. When I explained to Hornady what I was doing they sent me everything I asked for free of charge and asked me to let them know how it worked out.

Regardless of brand, these are rather complex mechanical devices that can sometimes be temperamental. Look through this forum and there are reports of folks having problems with L-N-L presses, but look in the Dilion specific forum as well, and you will likewise find reports or folks having issues with Dilion presses too. As mentioned here by others, it is likely easier to find shooting buddies, or folks in your area using Dilion presses to help you out if you have problems.

Talk you out of a Dilion. I wouldn't, but I will say that going red is not something you are likely to regret either. If you have not seen the Ultimate Reloader website, you may want to check it out. There are videos and information and multiple different progressives.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Chris Spiess

[Corey]

thanks for the info and the link Chris! Don't have much time to watch the vids tonight but I will def check them out soon!

[lugnut]

I find these threads humorous in many ways.

As the high level shooters will tell us... open your mind... see things you didn't see before.... try different things you might be surprised at what happens, etc, etc. Yet mention a press other than the almighty great blue and watch out!!

I went with the LNL and have no regrets. It was much cheaper than the 650 (I wanted full progressive and I'm so happy I did) and I had several friends that had used many presses and recommended the Hornady.

As a new reloader it took me a while to figure things out- especially the PTEs- they made me crazy on the 9mms- other cases were not an issue at all. A few glitches here and there but nothing big.

I often hear how good Dillon's support is and I don't dispute it.. but how can all the Dillion guys be so quick to trash Hornady? How can they all be so sure that Hornady's press is so bad? I've found Hornady's service to be excellent as well. Sure- some go from Red to Blue but I know a bunch that have goon from Blue to Red and after seeing mine wish they went red.

Oh and one more thing- just because 95% use Dillion- doesn't make it the best machine out there today. It just means they dominated the market for a long time. I wish Dillion and all their customers the best and won't trash the machines in any way.. but come on guys... there is more than one good choice out there now. Heck I love Glocks more than anyone... but I'd be fool to to think it's the only great gun out there!

[earlbob]

I got an email this week that said only: "help me sell my LNL and I'll buy a 650 from you. i'm not kidding."

I've seen this data but I'm not sure where to find it. What is the percentage of competitive shooters at major competitions the load on Dillon equipment? I remember it being quite high, maybe 80%+.

That says (or the real data does) a lot.

be

I seen this recently. It may be what you are thinking of. A quick scroll down will expose the truth! and that will set you free.

http://www.idpa.com/tj.asp?ID=252

Edited March 29, 2010 by earlbob

[Waldog]

I seen this recently. It may be what you are thinking of. A quick scroll down will expose the truth! and that will set you free.

earlbob,

Thanks! I understand now. Dillon owners are "narrow minded" and Hornady owners are just "stupid".

JUST KIDDING, JUST KIDDING. Of course Dillon dominates. They primarily make reloading equipment and have superb marketing. Hornady, on the other hand, concentrates it's marketing on their bullets and ammunition. Their reloading equipment is just one small facet of the company.

lugnut said it best,

Oh and one more thing- just because 95% use Dillion- doesn't make it the best machine out there today. It just means they dominated the market for a long time. I wish Dillion and all their customers the best and won't trash the machines in any way.. but come on guys... there is more than one good choice out there now.

Sorry earlbob, I've used blue press and the red press. I like the red press better. Wait!! That makes me stupid, right? LOL

[Delray]

I sold my LNL a few weeks ago and bought a XL650 based mainly on community support. The XL650 has disappointed me in a couple of ways so far. The primer handling system is not as good as the LNL. If you cycle the press but dont put a primer in a casing it throws the primer in to a small tray. It seems like this could have been engineered better. Also the XL650 toolhead is much smaller that then LNL and is kind of hard to work with if you have all stations full.

[benos]

I got an email this week that said only: "help me sell my LNL and I'll buy a 650 from you. i'm not kidding."

I've seen this data but I'm not sure where to find it. What is the percentage of competitive shooters at major competitions the load on Dillon equipment? I remember it being quite high, maybe 80%+.

That says (or the real data does) a lot.

be

I seen this recently. It may be what you are thinking of. A quick scroll down will expose the truth! and that will set you free.

http://www.idpa.com/tj.asp?ID=252

thanks for the link. Yes, serioius competitors and pros usually use the best equipment.

be

[Waldog]

benos

It's your forum. Why don't you take the 'Non-Dillon Reloading Equipment" Thread off the your web. Since "...serious competitors and pros usually use the best equipment". All of us Non-Dillon users are just a bunch of amateur wanna' be's we are obviously wasting your band-width.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Waldog

[ben b.]

Brian, I like that you offer the non-Dillon subforum. Thanks for having it for LnL AP Users, including me.

Regards,

Ben Bock

Eugene, OR

[benos]

benos

It's your forum. Why don't you take the 'Non-Dillon Reloading Equipment" Thread off the your web. Since "...serious competitors and pros usually use the best equipment". All of us Non-Dillon users are just a bunch of amateur wanna' be's we are obviously wasting your band-width.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for what I said to be taken like that at all. I should have been more thoughtful before posting.

All I meant is that 6 Hornady presses compared to 196 Dillon presses is saying something.

After 10 years of hosting the forums, I'm certainly familiar with bandwidth wasters. And this Topic isn't one.

Thank you ben b.

be

[Corey]

it does appear that the users of Dillons FAR outweight the others, but one thing I have seen as a constant, whether its posted here or PMN;d to me. Dillon users love their machines, and think they are great and i should buy one. Hornady users love their machines, think they are great, think i should buy one and then usually have bunch of information and details as to WHY they love them and WHY i should buy one.

Not sure if I've posted this in the past in this thread but i do have the ability to test run a fully setup LNL AP at work (yea, be jealous ) we also have a Dillon 550 (I know, not exactly fair, but at least a dillon that I can play with).

[Paul Burtchell]

I'd never try to talk anyone "out of a Dillon". I love my 550 with the "As it should be" package I purchased from Brian . I may take the next step one day and get a 1050 with a bullet feeder but, I'll still keep the 550b.

[Toolguy]

I have used most of the progressives out there over 30 years of shooting and reloading. I have not used the Hornady LNL because when I got my Dillons they didn't exist. I would say there is no perfect loading press out there that doesn't have a glitch now and then. I doubt there ever will be. Having said that, I like Dillon the best of all the ones I've tried. Dillon has the most convenience and the least problems of the ones I know first hand. I have 2 550s, one set up for large primer and one set up for small primer, 14 toolheads each with it's own powder measure. I don't keep count, but I have probably loaded over 200,000 rounds on those 2 presses with very little downtime. I'm happy with the quality, service and ease of use. The LNL may be a fine press, but I don't see any reason to change.

[orangeman711]

I use all the following Blue Presses. SDB,450,550,and two 650's. Why,you may ask. I started with one of the Red Presses. After fighting with the incomplete assembly instructions,and getting no tech support when I called,I was finally able to have a friend help me complete the assembly. After completing assembly the unit worked only some of the time. Again no tech support when I would call.A fellow shooter told me about a Dillon Dist. who would give me what I paid for it when I bought a Dillon. I bought a 550 and have never looked back. The assembly instructions were well written, with clear pictures and easy to follow instructions.(this was years before they made the assembly and use tapes)To me the number one plus in addition to ease of use was the tech support and no BS guarantee. That first experience with Dillon sold me on their products. Since then I have not only added more reloaders but casefeeders,tumblers,and a case trimmer,not to mention other accessories.To me they are the best,but thats only my opinion.

[Chris iliff]

I have a 650, I would love to try a LNL. Not one single shooter that I know has the LNL, everyone has a Dillon. I have tested the NO B.S. warranty and yes, it is exactly that. I read this whole thread and it is a little reminiscent of some threads that get locked. I'm glad this one didn't, as it does have good points. Sounds like both presses are good.

Corey, if you buy any color other than blue, I'll never talk to you about your gun or gear again, might be a plus !

[Corey]

I have a 650, I would love to try a LNL. Not one single shooter that I know has the LNL, everyone has a Dillon. I have tested the NO B.S. warranty and yes, it is exactly that. I read this whole thread and it is a little reminiscent of some threads that get locked. I'm glad this one didn't, as it does have good points. Sounds like both presses are good.

Corey, if you buy any color other than blue, I'll never talk to you about your gun or gear again, might be a plus !

hmmmm, peace and quiet at local matches? add a point for the red machine, haha

[rvb]

I have a 650, I would love to try a LNL. Not one single shooter that I know has the LNL, everyone has a Dillon. I have tested the NO B.S. warranty and yes, it is exactly that. I read this whole thread and it is a little reminiscent of some threads that get locked. I'm glad this one didn't, as it does have good points. Sounds like both presses are good.

Corey, if you buy any color other than blue, I'll never talk to you about your gun or gear again, might be a plus !

hmmmm, peace and quiet at local matches? add a point for the red machine, haha

you can still get a Dillon ...

Edited April 2, 2010 by rvb

[Chris iliff]

Thanks Ryan, that's what he needs to do!

[Mush from PA.]

I was looking for a progressive a year or so ago and did the search for information and got the “go blue or don’t go at all” but I thought I would search for my self anyway. I load several rifle and pistol calibers and needed to change back and forth with out too much fuss. From the Dillon users I get the “I have one machine for 9mm and one for 45 and never change them). The Lock and Load system makes die change easy and quick. Setting up the powder measure for a new load is about 5 minutes at most. For me it is the operator that is the problem, not the machine.

I bought a “used” but never worked L-N-L for a price I could not refuse and spent some time on the phone with Hornady support. They were great and stayed with me until I got the indexing correct; again it was the operator not the machine in this case. But the learning curve is steep sometimes.

My co-worker is a big Dillon fan that wanted to use my press for comparison. I wonder if he really wanted an “I told you so” opportunity. He used my press and kept commenting on the Hornady functions that his press did not have. Then I showed him how to change dies for a different caliber and his eyes went wide on how easy it was. I use Hornady, RCBS, and Lee dies that I pick up. He only used Dillon. He also liked the Power measure and the primer system and kept asking if the primers all could go off at once (???).

I told him it was not that I only liked “Red” presses, I do have a green Redding T7 Turret press and a darker green RCBS single stage. I may have a Blue press someday, who knows.

When I started looking for a progressive he left the “Blue Press catalog” on my desk. I may have to leave a Hornady product catalog on his desk to stir the pot a little…….

I do want to use his Dillon to see what it is like, so I guess I can't piss him off too bad.

[millisec]

I did my research and thought long and hard but in the end it was LNL AP. I have no doubt Dillon makes a good product but I find it questionable that so many people are pushed to the 550 (I was leaning towards the 650). It may have its uses but for the price it’s a no brainer to go LNL AP (even over 650 for price) and get 5 stations and full progressive with what may arguably be the better powder system. Not to mention it includes everything to make a quick caliber switch except dies, shell plate and extra LNL bushings (no 100’s extra for a changeover). If you buy the case feeder it comes with everything except feeder plates and buying a set of 4 covers just about every caliber. There is no $$$ in "as it should be" extra's to be the way it should be out of the box. So as far as I’m concerned I’m quite happy with Hornady and the money I saved by not buying Dillon bought other things like a steel/laminate work bench, shell plates, powder micrometer, extra LNL bushings, Hornady tumbler, Redding comp pro dies and yes a Dillon D-Term scale. In the end there was still money for powder, bullets and primers. It would be nice if Hornady had a strong mount, bullet tray and a better handle but hey nothings perfect including Dillon.

I have not had to deal with Hornady yet but I like the way they operate in responding to issues. The press I got included a powder baffle and an indicator rod for the primer tube. Not in the manuals but in the box in response to issues.

This might not be real popular with the blue crowd but I’m going to say it anyway because it needs to be said. Another deciding factor in not buying Dillon is what I see as price fixing. Dillon sets the prices and that’s what they retail for, period. I have compared the handful of businesses that bother to sell Dillon and there is zero variance from Dillon's published list price. That means zero competition for my business and leaves a bad taste.

I never look for the cheapest or most expensive of anything but rather the best price performance that meets/exceeds my needs. Based on objective info from here and other sites Hornady had it and I don’t regret the decision. Bottom line is make up your own mind based on the facts and your needs (not what someone says you need). If Dillon does it for you then buy it... just don't drink the blue Kool-Aide

[millisec]

BTW Interesting IDPA 2009 Nationals survey data...

By that logic you know your a rank amatuer if you don't...

1) Shoot a Glock

2) Load on Dillon

3) Do your own gunsmithing

4) Use a Comp-Tac holster

5) Load your own ammo

6) Shoot jacketed MG bullets

7) Use mixed brass with Hodgdon powder and Winchester primers

8) Wear Oakley's

9) Use Peltor hearing protection

10)Pack it all in an I-Shot range bag.

[Bass Ackwardz]

whichever progressive press i go with will be most likely for pistol only. Ill still use my single stage for 223 when i get around to getting into 3 gun.

thats what I thought too...lol. My Rockchucker gets used for accuracy loads only. Now that I have a 550B with 5 caliber conversions, powder measures, etc., I cant imagine using a single stage for my 3-gun AR ammo.

Bass

[Chris Spiess]

It would be nice if Hornady had a strong mount, bullet tray and a better handle but hey nothings perfect including Dillon.

Check out the UltimateReloader web site: Bullet Tray, Roller handle & build your own stand

Another deciding factor in not buying Dillon is what I see as price fixing. Dillon sets the prices and that’s what they retail for, period. I have compared the handful of businesses that bother to sell Dillon and there is zero variance from Dillon's published list price. That means zero competition for my business and leaves a bad taste.

It's not all that uncommon for manufacturers of specialty, niche products to require their dealers to sell at full retail.

[98sr20ve]

Not to mention it includes everything to make a quick caliber switch except dies, shell plate and extra LNL bushings (no 100’s extra for a changeover

So it comes with everything excepet....well everything you need. So does the Dillon then I guess. They just have different names and the LnL stuff is cheaper.

(no 100’s extra for a changeover

550 Caliber conversions isn’t over $100, 650 is a little over $100. You don’t need a powder measure to change calibers quickly. Just because some people buy it doesn’t mean you need it or at a disadvantage if you don’t own it. LnL Conversions are cheaper. No doubt about that.

. If you buy the case feeder it comes with everything except feeder plates and buying a set of 4 covers just about every caliber

Hornady Case feeder is more expensive. Simple as that. In fact if you add the price of the LnL with casefeeder and conversion and do the same to a 650 with casefeeder they are pretty close to the same price (not including the free bullet offer).

There is no $$$ in "as it should be" extra's to be the way it should be out of the box

That’s just because Hornady doesn’t make any of that stuff. They don’t have a roller handle, don’t have a strong mount, don’t have a bullet tray. It’s simply not as complete of system. You can step out of the Hornady family and get some of these items. The roller handle made for a Dillon can be made to work on a LNL. The ultimate reloader handle has a weird bend don’t know how good it is yet, my friend has one and likes it. They don’t include a low primer alarm with the machine at all. You can add a Low primer alarm for the RCBS. LnL PTX setup is not nearly as good as the Dillon Powder Funnel. It does nothing to expand the inside of the case to uniform it for lead bullets. You have to buy a silly “lead bullet” ptx and fiddle with it to make it work. Dillons just plan old works right the first time. So yeah, your right. The LnL doesn’t have as much to buy because they simply don’t make it. My 550 has a Roller Handle. I have two powder measures but I am going to sell my extra. I would rather have the micro adjuster then two powder measures. It takes all of 30secs (if even) to move the Powder measure from one to the next. And you don’t have to fiddle with a linkage to make the change from one caliber to the next. Pretty simple. “As it should be” is nice if you need it but you simply don’t need it if your bench is the right height (just like you don't need it for the LnL). Using it as a justification for the LnL is silly. With out the “as it should be” the Dillon is still shipped with things the LnL doesn’t even offer (low primer alarm, case activated powder measure that also flares the case and expands the inside of the case mouth).

I have not had to deal with Hornady yet but I like the way they operate in responding to issues.

Hornady is OK. It’s helped me with some warranty items on dies. They sent the parts just like they should. It didn’t fix the problem and in the end I had to just modify the parts to make it work the way it should. I am not terribly impressed with their dies as a result. LnL is a fine machine. It’s a good value especially if you want a lot of caliber conversion. Enjoy your press.

[Jman]

BTW Interesting IDPA 2009 Nationals survey data...

By that logic you know your a rank amatuer if you don't...

1) Shoot a Glock

2) Load on Dillon

3) Do your own gunsmithing

4) Use a Comp-Tac holster

5) Load your own ammo

6) Shoot jacketed MG bullets

7) Use mixed brass with Hodgdon powder and Winchester primers

8) Wear Oakley's

9) Use Peltor hearing protection

10)Pack it all in an I-Shot range bag.

MUST ADD--- A Benchmade folder. (clip must be seen on you back pocket to qualify)

Edited May 3, 2010 by Jman