10mm in Heavy Metal

[RufDog]

What is your opnion on allowing the 10mm auto cartridge in the "Heavy" classes such as HeMan, Heavy Metal etc? Do you think capacity in Heavy Metal should be limited in pistols to ten rounds or not be restricted beyond the standard 140mm?

[Jesse Tischauser]

I don't currently shoot Heavy Metal but I like the idea of it and will do so in the future. I just need the guns to do it. The rules are kind of fickle on the Heavy Metal scene which I feal detracts from the division. At our local matches we have a few guys every month that want to shoot the division but the rules they find on the internet are all so differnent we get the same questions asked over and over again.

I think the point of Heavy Metal is give us all a reason to have a 45 and a 308. We shoudln't limit mag capacity or force everyone to use iron sights or a pump shotgun for that matter. I vote to use the same rules as tac optic/iron just with bigger bullets and more recoil.

[Vincent C]

I really like the idea of making 10mm part of heavy metal. Heavy metal could almost be used as a higher power factor division. I think a mag capacity limit should be part of it. Otherwise the class will turn into tac optic just with 308s. I think having a power factor and a minimum caliber for rifle and pistol instead of a specific caliber you must use would bring in some more people. I like keeping the pump shotgun and iron sites only too.

[RufDog]

Great responses, keep em coming..

[Merlin Orr]

Let in the 10 and 140 mags and the 45 is history.... No.

[bigbrowndog]

NO, leave it as it is. WE do not need to make concessions.

Trapr

[spd522]

No to 10 mm.

Yes to 140mm 45 acp allowed.

But I may be biased with my 18+1 Para P14.

Craig

[HRider]

I say no and limit mag capacity. How many people own a 10mm and don't have a 45? Probaly not many.

Hurley

[RufDog]

Let in the 10 and 140 mags and the 45 is history.... No.

In the "heavy" hard hitting spirit the 10mm out performs the 45

so, if you are aginst the 140mm mag limit then vote for 10rd max & its all good, right?

[HRider]

Let in the 10 and 140 mags and the 45 is history.... No.

In the "heavy" hard hitting spirit the 10mm out performs the 45

so, if you are aginst the 140mm mag limit then vote for 10rd max & its all good, right?

Not at 165pf. It performs about the same. I don't dislike the 10mm cartridge, I just think that if you allow 10mm, 140mm mags, auto shotguns, optics etc. it will take away from the sprit of the division.

Hurley

[RufDog]

Let in the 10 and 140 mags and the 45 is history.... No.

In the "heavy" hard hitting spirit the 10mm out performs the 45

so, if you are aginst the 140mm mag limit then vote for 10rd max & its all good, right?

Not at 165pf. It performs about the same. I don't dislike the 10mm cartridge, I just think that if you allow 10mm, 140mm mags, auto shotguns, optics etc. it will take away from the sprit of the division.

Hurley

The spirit & survival of the division are important. This division, as pointed out by others, is pretty light in participation.

[JimmyZip]

sorry

Edited March 3, 2010 by JimmyZip

[Bryan 45]

I shoot HM, and I say no to 10mm and yes to 10 rounds. Heavy Metal use to be known as He-man- because that's what you had to be to shoot it! If 10mm and 140mm mags are allowed, .45 has no where to play. We're already on the isle of misfit toys.

[bigbrowndog]

I like the 10mm and own several but it doesn't belong in HM, nor should it be allowed, nor should the division be based on a min. PF. Chrono's slow a match down, and if you are going to chrono only some shooters then its not fair.

get a .45.

trapr

please explain how allowing these changes benefit the class on a wholesale level and not just you??????

Edited March 3, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[Merlin Orr]

Let in the 10 and 140 mags and the 45 is history.... No.

In the "heavy" hard hitting spirit the 10mm out performs the 45

so, if you are aginst the 140mm mag limit then vote for 10rd max & its all good, right?

No.

[HRider]

Let in the 10 and 140 mags and the 45 is history.... No.

In the "heavy" hard hitting spirit the 10mm out performs the 45

so, if you are aginst the 140mm mag limit then vote for 10rd max & its all good, right?

Not at 165pf. It performs about the same. I don't dislike the 10mm cartridge, I just think that if you allow 10mm, 140mm mags, auto shotguns, optics etc. it will take away from the sprit of the division.

Hurley

The spirit & survival of the division are important. This division, as pointed out by others, is pretty light in participation.

I can't argue about participation, I just think 10mm hicaps would drive out more than they would let in.

Hurley

[Big Bear]

as I am carefully watching these result I will not weigh in yet. I would however like to comment on the power factor. I dont believe power factor has a place here. I may be wrong and approach this very open minded. But, as a match director, I can't see putting in an extra stage, like in USPSA, to have the competitor bring both rifle and pistol to my staff along with 10-15 rounds each so that they can be chrono'ed. two hundred and thirty shooters + would be a nightmare, time consuming and against the spirit of the sport, which is to have fun. Just like government we must be careful NOT to overregulate.

[DarthMuffin]

Yes, but I think HM handguns should basically be anything that fits Lim-10 Major PF.

IMHO the sport should not restrict people to, or endorse, a particular type of handgun (*cough* 1911 *cough*). It just seems elitist to me. You can use any of dozens of types of .308 or pump shotgun, but there's no pistol choice. At least let other types of .45 in, with a round-count restriction to keep it balanced. I can't think of any .45 handgun that would have a competitive advantage over a 1911, so why not?

Edited March 3, 2010 by DarthMuffin

[barrysuperhawk]

What is your opnion on allowing the 10mm auto cartridge in the "Heavy" classes such as HeMan, Heavy Metal etc? Do you think capacity in Heavy Metal should be limited in pistols to ten rounds or not be restricted beyond the standard 140mm?

You missed a poll option:

x HM sould use full USPSA singlestack rules, [no more than 8 rounds in a magazine, even for a barney bullet; no speed holsters; pant seam rule, etc.]

The only problem I see with 10mm in HM is "gamers" using puff loads just to get the +2 mag advantage. Many 3 gun matches don't chrono, and given the size of the average prize table, being able to skip one or two reloads over the course of a match could be worth hundreds of dollars. Require 180+ power factor and restrict it to 8 rounds in the mag, and I could get behind 10mm in HM.

If you don't want a chrono, then eliminate the prize table altogeather. It's the sad fact of any competitive sport that there are always going to be competitors that skirt the ragged edge of the rules. And yes, If I was running a "big match" I would chrono everything, pistol, rifle and slugs. Kentucky has a good system, the chrono is paired up with a random draw prize table, so the time isn't wasted.

Heavy metal is a very narrow class, consisting of [comparitively] low capacity, powerful guns that require the shooter to be proficient. No speedloaders, no extra-cap mags, no optics... HM is not a gamers class, it's like single stack rules in IPSC, it the IROC racing series, it's the blue colar tough guy of 3 gun, and pansies need not apply.

IMHO 3 gun already has too many "different" classes it's getting alot like USPSA. I mean what - tac optics heavy ? Please. The point of classes is so people are competing against similarly equipped competitors. You can't possibly make a class for every possible combination. If you want to shoot your glock 10mm or hi-cap .45, there is already a class for you, it's called limited [or tactical]. If you want to shoot your optic equipped DPMS 308... theres already a class, its called Tactical. If you are just shooting for the fun of the match, it shouldnt matter if you arent on the bleeding edge of competitiveness...

Edited March 3, 2010 by barrysuperhawk

[Big Bore]

I have to go against the grain and say Yes to the 10mm with a minimum power factor and a 10 round magazine limit. I know it won't happen due to chrono time and other factors, but, oh well I went out and bought a XD .45 for heavy metal and then found it had to be a 1911 single stack so I'll stick with my .40 and limited class.

Maybe a minimum of a 200 power factor, my plinker loads have a 190 power factor with a 200 grain Rainier.

[Gary Stevens]

There has been a change in HM that basically says the handgun must follow the L-10 rules, but must make major pf. This will be posted very shortly.

Gary.

[fiddler]

IMHO the 12ga pump gun is what puts the Heavy in Heavy Metal.

Also IMHO making .45 the minimum caliber and/or mandating a stout power factor and restricting magazine capacity without requiring the pistol to be a 1911 would open the division to some more shooters.

But then, I don't even shoot 3 gun. Yet.

[Bryan 45]

Most non-USPSA matches already allow any .45 handgun to be used in heavy metal w/ maximum of either 8 or 10 rounds in the mag.

USPSA matches are the only ones I'm aware of that require it to be a 1911. I think it's good they are going to allow guns other than the 1911 to shoot HM, but I think it's a mistake to open it up to any major PF. If a chrono has to be used, the PF should be 180 or more.

[dcloudy777]

I say let 10mm in, but with the same 8+1 mag limit as .45... I think that would eliminate the advantage of the 10 (you can load a powder-puff .45 just as easy as a powder puff 10mm). Even if it would just bring a couple more folks in to play, if it doesn't hurt anything, why not? I also like the USPA singlestack holster rules. I wouldn't mind opening it up to .357mag, I think it would be cool to play the game with an 8-shot revolver. Just my random thoughts...

DanO

[RiggerJJ]

45 (or 44) cal pistol, 10 rounds

308 rifle (scoped or irons) 20 rounds

12 ga pump, 9 rounds

Why is it that just about every year (in the spring) somebody tries to "fix" HeMan???

the HEMAN rules are just fine the way they are...

jj