hot slung carbine?

[BBsound]

How do you guys handle hot slung carbines, and the issue of the 180?

In my opinion a carbine can be slung hot with the safety on, and it should be pointed relatively downward.

Some two and three point slings point the carbine back a foot or two behind the shooter.

[D.Hayden]

Most matches will just specify the condition the rifle has to be in.

I haven't been to a major match that would ever allow a hot rifle slung. A few local matches, with their own rulebooks, but that's it. And it wasn't a very comfortbale feeling

[RiggerJJ]

you talking about in "real life" or during a 3 gun match???

Most matches that require a slung carbine in a stage mandate that it be slung empty bolt down on empty chamber, for obvious reasons...

slung shotguns are usually slung mag loaded chamber empty, or just empty.

jj

[Merlin Orr]

Never been to a match that would allow it. Don't want to start now either.

[HRider]

I shot a match one time that required, (well allowed, you didn't have to start with one in the pipe) you to have your rifle slung hot. It was at the start of the stage and you were in front of a door holding a short shotgun that you used to breach the lock bar of the door with. There wasn't any movement really. You just shot the shotgun and dropped it in a dump barrel, unslung your rifle and went trough the door. The ROs cautioned everyone of the 180 at the walkthrough and again before the buzzer. I put just a plain old military sling on my rifle for that stage and slung it upside down over my left shoulder. As I was putting the shotgun down with my right hand, I gripped the forearm of my rifle with my left hand and rolled it off of my shoulder. If there is going to be movement, I would prefer that the rifle be staged, slung empty or at least leave the chamber empty. My $.02

Hurley

[AFH]

I have shot a couple of matches that allowed hot riflesto be slung and had a great time. With the rifle slung muzzle down and the safety on, safety is maintained. Shooters will have the option of slinging a hot rifle in that manner for a brief period during one stage of the BRM3G this year.

Andy

[bigbrowndog]

if the safety is on, why would muzzle up direction matter??? if it doesn't matter with it muzzle down????

Trapr

[Mike P]

Let us not forget how easy it is for a safety to find itself in the wrong position. In a box pointed at a berm it'll get you a DQ, what'll it get you on a slung rifle with a 2 pound single stage trigger?

Even a stock safety lever can become inadvertently disengaged when dragged across other kit positioned on the belt/rig. How easy would it be for a big a$$ competition style extended safety to not be engaged at the worst possible time.

I have slung my FAL (muzzle down) with the British style safety lever to check targets downrange and had it change to the off position without me knowing when it happened.

I know shooting stages with a "hot slung" rifle can be done safely. But is it REALLY a good idea to do it at a match open to competitors of all skill levels? What does it add besides extra excitement for the RO?

[sirveyr]

I see no problem with a rifle being "hot" when it is slung. I understand the, "not everyone is as safe as me" mentality, but I'm still not sure why everyone always gets to uptight about this type of stuff.

[BBsound]

if the safety is on, why would muzzle up direction matter??? if it doesn't matter with it muzzle down????

Trapr

because by design single point, two point, and three point slings used in the matter that we use them points the muzzle down. Save the muzzle up two point for your hunting rifle.

[Lee King]

I RO'd Ft. Benning last year (2008) and we had a guy in the trench stage who was missing the detent (or it disintegrated) on his safety. It would basically spin. We only noticed it because when he dumped the gun in a barrel it's safety was 1/2 way between "SAFE" and "FIRE". We made him clear the gun and pull the trigger. It didn't drop so no DQ. But it wouldn't take much for it to spin off safety either.

Put that same guy in the context of slinging a hot rifle and the chance of an AD increases dramatically. Yeah he shouldn't be in the match with faulty equipment... maybe should've been stopped until he fixed his rifle or DQ'd with unsafe equipment. But who knows how many stages he shot before anyone noticed it. HE clearly didn't think it was a big deal because he knew it was faulty. But he chose to shoot it anyway.

Add the stress of competition how many people would plain forget? I assume if you forgot it would mean a DQ but how would an RO see it since the shooter's body hides it? How many people remember to put the safety on when moving? If you AD because you have your finger on the trigger etc you are still controlling the direction of the muzzle (even if it's over the berm YOU pointed it there). With a sling you take away a large degree of that control. Yeah the muzzle should be down for most 2 and 3 point slings but where exactly is down? Could the shooter sweep themselves with a muzzle?

As improbable as it seems we had a shooter on our squad at Blue Ridge last year get the muzzle of his gun caught in the cuff of his pants. His sling wasn't unusually long. He tripped and stumbled. He didn't fall but he sort of caught himself with his butt low and his left leg way behind him (the rifle was slung on his back). The muzzle caught his pants leg and tripped him up. He was using his handgun at the moment and kept it pointed in a safe direction finger off the trigger. The rifle was empty so he was good as far as DQ. But change that to HOT weapon slung in front...

[Jadeslade]

if the safety is on, why would muzzle up direction matter??? if it doesn't matter with it muzzle down????

Trapr

Cause like I don't mind my foot being lasered by some dude, but I do mind my face being lasered. Like if they bend down to tie their shoe. I'm a belts and suspenders kind of guy. If you want to trust somebody else's safety, be my guest.

[jacspopo]

if it were a war zone, self defense situation, real life, etc. then yeah hot is the ticket. I carry a hot handgun everyday everywhere and have for 15 years now. Ive seen a competitor and a student in a gun class inadvertantly shoot themselves in the last 2 years and know of 3 other incidents in the same time frame in "supervised" situations. We shoot these games for fun, why needlessly risk a very serious injury or worse for the sport with hot guns where they dont need to be hot?

[SinistralRifleman]

I've shot a lot of matches that allowed hot slung long guns. I think its a non-issue as long as the 180 is maintained.

Matches that allow hot transitions from rifle to pistol I generally don't like letting the rifle just hang on the sling. I find its faster to keep the rifle forearm in my support hand and one hand shoot the pistol targets. Moving with a long gun slung in the front is a pain. If I could throw it around behind me, not a big deal. But I don't think that's a good idea in a competition environment.

[Nik Habicht]

if the safety is on, why would muzzle up direction matter??? if it doesn't matter with it muzzle down????

Trapr

In which direction would an unintentional discharge be more likely to send a bullet out of the range? (This may be an East Coast/West Coast concern difference....

[sslav]

I see no problem with a rifle being "hot" when it is slung. I understand the, "not everyone is as safe as me" mentality, but I'm still not sure why everyone always gets to uptight about this type of stuff.

Possibly because some people have an unreasonable aversion to getting shot while playing a game.

[3gunner]

It seems like we did this at Kyle Lamb's match a few years ago. He was pretty upfront, " we are playing like big boys, don't screw this up". I remember shooting the pistol and making DAMN SURE the rifle muzzle was down range.

[SN13]

How can a rifle safety just spin freely? I mean AK safeties are hard to accidentally disengage.... actually They're hard to purposely disengage....

[Lee King]

How can a rifle safety just spin freely? I mean AK safeties are hard to accidentally disengage.... actually They're hard to purposely disengage....

The guy I was talking about had an AR. There is supposed to be a detent that makes it "click" into either safe or fire. Something wasn't right with his. No "click" it just rotated. He was lucky that when he had to demonstrate, it was enough towards "safe" to prevent the hammer from falling. But a good strong breeze or bump could've easily caused it to rotate down enough to allow it to fire. I don't care if it's an AR, AK, 1911, shotgun.. if it's broke it's broke.

My point was that this guy wasn't concerned about the condition of his rifle. After he stood there and said "yeah it does that". He knew about it and chose to shoot anyway. In a hot slung carbine situation, we're relying on that safety to work. Out of 300+ shooters you had 1 guy who wasn't concerned. Is that the guy to shoot his own foot?

[Pinky]

This thread does not belong on BE. Just the question makes us all look like lunatics. On my (cold) range if you break 180 my daughter will crucify you. Literally. My advice to beginners and anyone else who has never personally witnessed a firearm related injury is that if you witness this (expletive deleted)RUN don't walk and get the he double hockey sticks out of there and don't look back. Anyone engaged in this type of activity has an excellent chance of becoming a statistic of the worst sort. And that puts the sport we love and fight to protect in peril. Putting the lives of others at risk for the sake of machismo is CRIMINAL. I'm not here to anger anybody, I respect people's right to be (redacted), just stay away from my people, my range and my sport. A 61594

[Vlad]

Actually I think the question is just fine here. In some ways this place is the idea crucible for our games, and frankly if you think a hot gun makes anyone a lunatic, wth that says for the armed forces who have been known to sling them? I think in our games it is unnecessary so there is no reason to take the extra risk, but it doesn't hurt to discuss the issue, the mechanics involved and the risk vs reward ratios.

We load ammunition out of spec (load .40 loads? 9mm Major?), machine giant chunks out of our slides (which might need to contain the pressure of the aforementioned loads), shrink the holsters to something roughly the size of a postage stamp, and then we run around with this gear at full speed and shoot is as fast as we can press the trigger, pretty much at the edge of control. Lots of people would think we put the lives of others at risk with our behavior and try really hard to label us criminals, please don't help them.

But to the topic, I'm not worried about about slinging a hot rifle if the circumstances call for it, but I don't think it is worth the risk for an average match. If you are talking about an invitational where people are known to be capable, well so be it .. but I'd still rather prefer it not be so. A hot handgun is generally contained, a hot slung rifle not so much and the chance of snagging the safety to high.

[Pinky]

Actually I think the question is just fine here. In some ways this place is the idea crucible for our games, and frankly if you think a hot gun makes anyone a lunatic, wth that says for the armed forces who have been known to sling them? I think in our games it is unnecessary so there is no reason to take the extra risk, but it doesn't hurt to discuss the issue, the mechanics involved and the risk vs reward ratios.

We load ammunition out of spec (load .40 loads? 9mm Major?), machine giant chunks out of our slides (which might need to contain the pressure of the aforementioned loads), shrink the holsters to something roughly the size of a postage stamp, and then we run around with this gear at full speed and shoot is as fast as we can press the trigger, pretty much at the edge of control. Lots of people would think we put the lives of others at risk with our behavior and try really hard to label us criminals, please don't help them.

But to the topic, I'm not worried about about slinging a hot rifle if the circumstances call for it, but I don't think it is worth the risk for an average match. If you are talking about an invitational where people are known to be capable, well so be it .. but I'd still rather prefer it not be so. A hot handgun is generally contained, a hot slung rifle not so much and the chance of snagging the safety to high.

Yeah, I guess some clarification is appropriate. I'm referring to the question of hot slung rifles in a match. Hot slung rifle on patrol: fine. Hot slung rifle while hunting: Okay, fine if you must. It's just that we have built in these redundant safety measures for a reason. Depending solely on a mechanical safety for the sake of realism in training for combat is one thing. If I wanted to train that way I would join the Infantry, not USPSA. Pretty much all of us carry our pistols with a round chambered because it is safe to do so in a holster, my carry gun doesn't even have an external safety, but it's not flapping around pointing every which way like a rifle will.

I have to agree that this issue warrants further discussion, and this is apparently the place for it. Lets just be sure we're using objectivity when we weigh risks vs. rewards.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Pinky

[Jadeslade]

I don't mind slinging a hot rifle, but it's like anything else-you got to practice it and get it right. If you don't know how to do it-get somebody to show you. You also have to know how to hang your gear on the belt. Most IPSC gunhandling is way better than you see on a cold range on a normal basis. Most hot ranges have better trained personnel and technique than the average cold range. Your technique will get straightened out in a hurry if it's not cool. DVC

[SinistralRifleman]

I agree with Jadeslade that cold range rules can make people complacent long term. You can stop thinking about rule 1 below because an RO clears you at the end of every stage, it removes your personal responsibility for making sure your guns are unloaded and treating them as loaded all the time.

The only real safety issue with slinging a hot carbine is making sure that ones clothing or gear is not going going to 1) be able to knock the safety off or 2) pull the trigger during movement. I know of one accident with a hot slung long gun where the safety was knocked off against the shooter's gear and it pulled the trigger.

This is another reason why I prefer to simply shoot my pistol with my strong hand only while maintaining control of the rifle with my support hand; especially if I have to move while doing so. Running with a long gun slung across the front sucks in any case; they bounce around too much and hinder movement.

This thread does not belong on BE. Just the question makes us all look like lunatics. On my (cold) range if you break 180 my daughter will crucify you. Literally. My advice to beginners and anyone else who has never personally witnessed a firearm related injury is that if you witness this (expletive deleted)RUN don't walk and get the he double hockey sticks out of there and don't look back. Anyone engaged in this type of activity has an excellent chance of becoming a statistic of the worst sort. And that puts the sport we love and fight to protect in peril. Putting the lives of others at risk for the sake of machismo is CRIMINAL. I'm not here to anger anybody, I respect people's right to be (redacted), just stay away from my people, my range and my sport. A 61594

Firearms are inherently dangerous. That said, range rules are redundant above the 4 basic safety rules to make ranges and matches so the lowest common denominator can shoot them safely.

1) Treat all firearms as if they are always loaded

2) Never cover anything you aren't willing to destroy

3) Finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire

4) Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Those 4 rules are the only rules any shooting range or event needs to be run safely. Even in the case I mentioned above, rule 2 was violated as the muzzle was covering part of the shooter's body. Normally more than 2 rules need to be violeted for something bad to happen; except in the case of mechanical failure. Additional safety rules that are EXTENSIONs of those rules are fine so that any person with any skill level can attend a match for $10-$20. Not every match needs to be run for the lowest common denominator though. In my opinion, the best most challenging matches I have attended are the ones that REQUIRE the shooter have a certain level of experience to participate so that extraneous range rules do not hinder the shooting experience.

In the end, matches are a product and the people buying the product will determine if the rules are too loose or too restrictive for them. Frankly, you would probably find many of the "outlaw" matches too extreme for your taste as they can involve hot reholstering, hot transitions for long guns, and navigating obstacles and terrain that pose greater risk physical injury than of someone shooting them self or others through negligence.

Edited March 15, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[Patrick Sweeney]

For me, no hot-slinging a rifle (or shotgun) in a match, against the clock. We don't allow/require competitors to re-holster a hot handgun against the clock, why would we allow it with a long gun?

as stated, we've built in redundancy in safety and procedure, for a reason and to good effect.