Nick Weidhaas Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 I had started a thread a while back asking what folks thought about an SV or STI widebody 9mm or .38sup for ESP Div. Many said they knew of folks shooting the "cross competitor" type guns set up in these calibers. A few told me to try a .40 at a 130pf before going 9mm or .38sup. Since I found a good SV short dust cover .40 at a good price, I gave it a try. I had the barrel turned down and a bushing fitted. I loaded some 180gr. bullets with Clays (Bucky's suggestion) and I was impressed at how soft the gun was. My son has a Caspian 1911 in 9mm and the MagTech ammo he shoots is a 115gr fmj and it chrono's a 130pf. My perception is that the .40 at the same 130pf is softer than his 9mm at the same pf. I didn't think it would be that way, but that is the sense I get. We also both ended up using the same recoil spring...9lbs. Interestingly, I was talking to a Master IDPA shooter yesterday. He shoots a Glock 22 or 35 in SSP and ESP. He said he found the same thing.....40 dowloaded to a 130pf felt softer (less muzzle flip as well) than a 9mm at the same pf. I don't think I'm going to continue to shoot the Clays in this cal. and pf, but the .40 for ESP turned out to be a good thing.... Later, Nick- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 I suspect (and I could be wrong), that the primary difference in felt recoil is that you're using a 180gr bullet in the .40 and a 115gr in the 9mm to get to the same power factor. If you could load the same bullet weight and match the velocities, I think the difference might be negligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Nick, I use a G35 for Limited, Lim. 10 and IDPA. My wife shoots a G34. If I download my G35 to a 130 PF using a 180 gr. bullet it will shoot a lot softer than her G34 using white box Winchester. I now load her G34 with a 147 gr bullet at a 128-130 PF. My G35 is still softer. Both of our Glocks use a 13# spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 I agree. I have been shooting a 9mm 1911 (SA)using 126pf 147 and recently shot a friends 40 1911 (Kimber) using a 130 pf 220gr. The 40 was much softer than my lower power 9mm loads. If I didn't have a stable full of 9's already and was just starting I would definatly shoot a 130 pf 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the duck of death Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 I tried my best to convience a friend to get a G35 rather than the G34 for this reason. He bought the G34 and now it's for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Try a 9 mm with N310 under a 147. Now that's soft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 I may try some 160 gr bullets in her 9mm just for grins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Ron The load I was using for comparison was 3.0 grs of VV 310 under a 147 JHP Zero at a chronoed 858fps, the 220gr 40 was softer and had even less snap. Both were shot in 1911's w/ low poundage springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Guys: This discussion is an extension of the one DogmaDog and I had in the reloading forum. Although he and I disagree on why, I think we net out at the same point: heavier bullets going slower create less recoil at a given pf. Our original discussion was on 200gn vs 255gn bullets in a 45 ACP. You guys have made the issue even more obvious with the comparison between a 9mm and a .40. BTW our discussion was based on a thread started by Nick, as well... The net is: to make a particular power factor a heavier bullet going slower will produce less recoil than a lighter bullet going faster. Geek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 I just gotta throw this out there. Heavier usually feels softer. That might not be the feel that works best for everybody, however. The best test is the timer. Feel is important, but the clock tells the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Nick: Glad you like the load. It certainly saves a few $$$ not having to have a seperate top end. The only thing you need to go from IDPA to IPSC is a heavier recoil spring, longer mags, and maybe a bigger mag well. BTW: You said you like the load... but you don't think you'll be using it anymore?? Did I understand this correctly? If so, why not. Are you worried about pressure? I shoot 4.6 grains Clays behind the 180 in my STI for IPSC and have yet to have a problem. I also shoot the minor load (3.2, don't ever do the major clays in "production" guns) in a Berettas and Glocks, which are no where near as robust as your SV. The load I was using for comparison was 3.0 grs of VV 310 under a 147 JHP Zero at a chronoed 858 HighTech: If my calc is correct, this is only a 126 power factor. Too close to the edge for my blood. I like to run at least 135pf. Keep in mind at this years FGN, the chrono gun was running 131. Have you gotten higher velocity out of the 310 with 147s or are you maxed out? I still have a bunch of 147 heads to use up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Flex: All numbers aside, I completely agree with you. The timer is the best judge. My approach to this stuff is to first do the math/science/engineering then do the bottom line test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Weidhaas Posted December 30, 2003 Author Share Posted December 30, 2003 Bucky, I do like the load, but not the small amount of powder in the case. I'm concerned I could easily get a double charge. I also am concerned about my velocity deviation. With a small amount of powder, my velocity can deviate more than a case that contains more powder. I want to try and find a powder that feels the same as Clays, but fills more of the case. Make any sense? Thanks again, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takliraven Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 I am going to try an STI EDGE in .40 in IDPA at 130pf. Any suggestions on a holster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Weidhaas Posted January 1, 2004 Author Share Posted January 1, 2004 takliraven I'm using a kydex Comp-Tac paddle holster (not their locking paddle) for IDPA and USPSA (1911, SV, and Glock). I love their holsters. Greg the owner is a good guy to deal with (shooter himself). I generally get my holsters within a week. (I've got a few friends to order their stuff and all have been happy.) Holsters can be ordered in a straight drop or canted (FBI). I use a canted one for work with my Glock 23 and straight drops for my 1911 and SV. The straight drop does not conceal as well, but is faster to draw from, IMHO. When Greg makes your holster, ask him for (3) tension screws (see picture on his web site of the 1911 in the locking paddle and you will see the 3 tension screws I'm talking about.) Having 3 screws really makes the holster easy to adjust. His mag pouches are also excellent (they also have a tension screw). The mag pouches snap over the belt with a really cool kydex clip that is integrated into the mag pouch and is rock solid when on the belt. I like this holsters and mag pouches as they are real easy to take on and off the belt, but solid when in place. I've treid bladetch and side armor and I think comp-tac is superior in quality and design, again IMHO. One other thing, comp tac can make their mag pouches canted for you for USPSA if you where them on the front of you body. Hope this helps. Their web site is: http://www.comp-tac.com Happy New Year, Nick- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Glad your liking your new Gun! I use a 10 lb spring in my cross-comps whether I am shooting major or minor. :-) I just make sure that it is cut to length properly. Use a spring tester from brownells to make sure that your can get a set-up for several springs. Comp-tac.com's gear is all I use except in open class then it's a Ghost holster and CR-Speed belt and pouches. For my belt in IDPA I use a Safariland over-belt and thread it through my belt loops. It is so stiff it's awesome. Take care, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 takliraven, the STI Edge is not legal for any IDPA division, due to its bull barrel. So I suggest you get a Ghost holster from Matt and take up USPSA shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 The net is: to make a particular power factor a heavier bullet going slower will produce less recoil than a lighter bullet going faster. That may or may not be true, but I don't believe that's what's happening here. What is happening is that, all else being equal, same bullet weight (say, 135 grains), same velocity, a .40 will operate at lower pressures than a 9mm, thus the perception of "softer" recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 The load I was using for comparison was 3.0 grs of VV 310 under a 147 JHP Zero at a chronoed 858 HighTech: If my calc is correct, this is only a 126 power factor. Too close to the edge for my blood. I like to run at least 135pf. Keep in mind at this years FGN, the chrono gun was running 131. Have you gotten higher velocity out of the 310 with 147s or are you maxed out? I still have a bunch of 147 heads to use up. Bucky That is correct the load is only a 126 pf. Yes I can and do get higher velocities. I personally don't think I would go for 135, but I also use a Glock length OAL to get just over 900 fps, with 3.1. Both of these are high pressure loads. For some reason my G-34 will not cycle reliably unless the velocity is around 900+ with a 147, recoil spring tension doesn't seem to make a great difference so when I plan to shoot the 34 I have the loads that will cycle it. The load that I have which only does 126 is exclusively for my Springfield 9mm. Seth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryfox Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 I shoot a para p16-40 in esp. I use 155 gr. and they shoot softer than my friends 9mm springfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 I had a bushing barreled .40 cal STI built back before there was a VIP or Cross Comp. I had the short grip and Commander topend. I actually carried the thing for a year or so, I really like how it shot with the Federal Personal Defense ammo. Using my real world IWB and shooting from under an untucked golf shirt like I carry every day I won the IDPA "Sunshine State Games" High Overall with it. Shooting IDPA mandated 130pf gamer loads, the thing was like shooting a squirt gun, I could see the sights right through recoil. One caveat about the short grips though, I cracked one hitting a reload, they are REALLY thin at the front, and don't have any sort of thick buffer like the stock length grips from S_I. Blast to shoot though, sorry I had to sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockton Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Although he and I disagree on why, I think we net out at the same point: heavier bullets going slower create less recoil at a given pf. Quick physics lesson...mass times velocity (even divided by 1,000) equals power factor. This is also the equation for momentum. The formula for kinetic energy is actually mass times velocity squared. Twice the velocity equals four times the K.E. I hear people argue all the time that equal PF loads give equal recoil...HA! I would be willing to say equal K.E. loads out of the same gun (a .45 usually weign more than a Glock!) would give equal recoil. So, a 115gr. making PF, has to go about 1,087 FPS. This yields a K.E. that is 121.7% of a 140 going 893 FPS to make the exact same power factor! What do I shoot??? A Springfield .45 with 230gr Precisions going 750 FPS. So what, I have to arc it in for the longer shots, it shoots pretty soft for a "big gun." As a sidenote, as long as K.E. is efficiently transferred to a threat (i.e. does not go through and through), it HAS to expend this energy into that threat. More energy (expansion being equal) means better stopping power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I would be willing to say equal K.E. loads out of the same gun (a .45 usually weign more than a Glock!) would give equal recoil. Ignoring that minor variable we call "powder" . One example off the top of my head (I chronoed some 38 Super steel loads yesterday) 7.2gr AA#5 vs 5gr N320 with a 121 gr HAP. The N320 load goes faster, thus has a higher PF (136 vs 132), more KE (340 ft-lbs vs 320), but noticeably less blast and recoil. Powder choice and quantity is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockton Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Shred, you are correct. Great point! I did leave out that IMPORTANT variable. A powder that brings a bullet up to a specified speed more smoothly by utilizing as much of the barrel as possible to build pressure- as opposed to a FAST powder that brings it up to speed in the first few inches- will shoot "softer". That is why I use Clays. It seems to be slow enough to utilize most of the barrel in my 5" Springgfield, yet still give complete burn. We could also make the same arguement for springs as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycanthrope Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I was always under the impression that faster burning powders felt softer (they do for me). I also consider Clays to be a really fast powder..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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