L9X25 Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 I totally agree with the majority here (Ron, TL, Sam) and think that this thread will lead to some paranoia on my part from now on. I will look at some of the lesser known folks on my squad and start wondering if they are packing a BUG. All of us were likely taught about ADs in IPSC ... some have had theirs and some are still waiting to have theirs and many of those that have had theirs will have another. Same goes with the BUG. I just prefer to keep the guys with the hot guns under the supervision of the RO and not behind me. I am not challenging anybody here but I feel that I can draw, load and fire my race gun as fast or faster than another can draw and fire a BUG from a secure ankle holster. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaughn leayme Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 Well, I can understand peoples opinion and the need to feel safe or to be assured of a level of safety, but there are questions I feel that needs to be asked. Do you worry about the possibility of the person behind you in line at the mall or convenience store, having a loaded concealed weapon? They are not under any supervision and who know's what level of training or skills they may posess. Does anyone go jogging or frequent places where there are people running/jogging? They can lose a primary or bug and have it go bouncing on the ground and who knows, it might be a C&L Commander or Officers model or a GM. Again they are under no supervision and who knows thier level of training. If you are so worried on a range or at a match, where the class of shooter, is probably higher than most of the general public, you must be terrified of walking around in public and are doing so with a high level of paranoia. Sound, familiar? Seems that is what you are saying about those who are carrying concealed at the range or during a match. A lot of the appearence of safety comes down to perception, but experience has shown me that even highly secured area's can be breached and safety can be an illusory thing. Even standing in an area full of people armed to the teeth and highly trained, is no garauntee of safety. Just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 It is the rule. What other rules are you breaking? Abide by the rules until you can get them changed, or don't come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 I don't - But I don't give a damn if you or everone else does.....Never lost a minute thinking bout it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 I would speculate that those that carry at matches are likely those that are least trained, least trustworthy and therefore most dangerous. Just a guess. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 The "hot BUG at match" dialouge is a pretty important topic because it deals with trust which is an important commodity, but I am gonna run this back to Rhino's new question because that is what Rhino now has on the table, and it's his topic in the first place. Have I ever noticed a friend needing a re-shoot and given it to him with a paster, or seen anything of this sort happen? No. But back when I was a RFNG I inadvertently made a new friend that way. My first stage, at my first match. I hear my name called to tape, woohoo! Grab the roll and head downrange after clear is called. Notice competitor and RO talking animatedly in front of a target so I decide not to bother them by asking where to start taping and just start at the other end of the stage. I get all of the targets taped except the one they are still arguing over when I notice the assistant RO pointing in my direction and talking about sumthin' called a re-shoot. Next thing I know I have the competitor shaking my hand and telling me that I am on his Christmas card list from now on. Folks sure are friendly in this here IPSIK game -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 28, 2003 Author Share Posted December 28, 2003 A friend and squadmate at the Kentucky match got me a reshoot on AikiDale's stage when she taped a target early. She was really upset about it, but I looked at it as a chance to shoot some more! Usually I do worse on reshoots, but this time I had better time (by several seconds) and got all of my hits too. But it really was an honest mistake on her part. Shaughn made some more excellent points (which is not to say all of you others did not). Of course, I still think we should run hot ranges. In my opinion, they are "safer" than cold ranges because you don't have anyone assuming any of the guns are unloaded just because it's a cold range. I know people intellectually know to treat all guns as loaded, but all too many people are lot more cavalier about it when they think they know it's unloaded because of a rule. Another friend made some good points offline today. It's not about fear and paranoia for some people, but rather choices about how they live their life each and every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Rhino, I'm curious how having 30+ unmonitored loaded guns walking around is safer than having 3 loaded guns which are under the direct supervision of 3 ROs? It's not as if we allowed to freely "play with" or handle our guns simply because they are unloaded and we would not touch them if we knew that they were loaded! We always treat EVERY gun as if it is loaded even if we just confirmed that it is unloaded right?? Constantly handling loaded guns WILL result in more ADs than constantly handling cold guns. Why is it any different than going to a restaurant or grocery store?... it just because of the saturation of guns in one location. In a restaurant or grocery store you may have one or 2 others that are carrying. At a shooting match (particularly a hot range) you will have a much higher saturation of loaded guns and that could approach 100%. The sheer number of hot guns being handled would dramatically increase the number of ADs and potential injuries/deaths. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 This is going to get ugly real fast. On to Rhino's 2nd question with no more discussing the first please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORCA Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Question 1 I'm with Ron, ban them from the sport. I wouldn't shoot at a range that condoned that activity. How many competitive shooting sports run a hot range? Polite Society. If someone felt they must carry a hot gun at a match they would probably fit in well with them. As far as being practical if you can get to a deeply concealed back up gun faster than you can load your primary gun your either damn fast on one or damn slow on the other. I wonder if a person who would carry a BUG in a match would carry one in a place where it is illegal? Question 2 I point out all scoring errors and penalties that are incorrect for good or ill for myself and others. I always give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter when I'm the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaughn leayme Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Constantly handling loaded guns WILL result in more ADs than constantly handling cold guns. Why is it any different than going to a restaurant or grocery store?... it just because of the saturation of guns in one location. In a restaurant or grocery store you may have one or 2 others that are carrying. At a shooting match (particularly a hot range) you will have a much higher saturation of loaded guns and that could approach 100%. The sheer number of hot guns being handled would dramatically increase the number of ADs and potential injuries/deaths.Leo With all due respect, that is a fallacy. The mere fact that it is a hot range is not going to result in the indescriminate handling of said firearms. Who would be constantly handling thier pistol? If the saturation of loaded firearms is going to increase the possibility of a Negligent Discharge, then we should hear about it every night on the news where some CCW holder had a ND at the Grocer or restaurant etc., we don't and can you tell me why? Because they know it is loaded, they are used to carrying it loaded and there is no doubt that it is loaded. The arguement that the presence of several loaded firearms is going to cause or lead to a marked increase in mayhem, death and injury, is such a spurious arguement, same as the one that Shall issue CCW, will result in blood in the streets, shoot out at the local convenience store and a host of other points brought up by those with an agenda or a poor understanding of the concept. That is all I have to say on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 (edited) Jake is right, if we have each made our own statement on question 1, then it's on to question 2 for the competitor. Rhino should have declared question 1 Virginia count -- Regards, Edited December 28, 2003 by George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaughn leayme Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Oh,well Was just getting all warmed up for the main event I concur, let us move on to less....shall we say inflamatory subject matter of twisting, bending and stroking the rules Regards ps: anyone know how to turn off this anonymous setting, have went to control center and can't get it turned off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Shaughn, We don't hear about an AD unless it leads to an injury or death. Why don't we hear about it when a CCW holder lawfully uses his weapon in self defense and saves himself and/or others??? Because the media chooses not to publish these details. Just because you don't hear or read about it does not mean that it does not happen. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaughn leayme Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 L9x25, On a sidebar note, with all the anti's running around trying to gut CCW in many jurisdictions, if there was even a limited number of ND's (never mind a lot), you could be assured that the press would grab it and run with it for all they could milk it for, since at first glance it would prove that they were right and the pro CCW were blowing smoke. Have a nice evening and a great holiday season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Excuse my ignorance, but what is an ND? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Same as AD, I think. Liota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaughn leayme Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Yes, it is the same. AD = Accidental Discharge ND = Negligent Discharge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 shaughn, If you no longer want to remain anonymous then log-off (just closing the browser window is NOT logging off) then log back in and DON’T choose the anonymous option. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 28, 2003 Author Share Posted December 28, 2003 QUESTION #3: Have you ever declared major power factor and knowingly shot loads that didn't make it? Or that you were not sure made it? This should be interesting because I know it happens a lot . . . except when people know the chrono will be there. I know of people who do it in every club match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORCA Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Question 3 No, I'm usually 5-10 over the major power factor. We have several people are regularly suspect of being under thier declared powerfactor. Usually the people in question are master baggers. We have had people who I'm sure made major at home, but when they came to our range that was at 2000 feet higher in elevation they loose a couple points from thier power factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Rhino: Smart a$$ed answer deleted. Cheaters suck and knowingly violating the rules is cheating. I am finished with this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Rhino, When I first started in IDPA I didn't own a chrono and shot whatever factory ammo was cheap at the time. I was gratified at my first Winter Nationals when I made power factor out of the G-34. After getting a chrono of my own, I had some factory ammo out of the g-19 come awfully close to not making it --- so if you added in a cold winter match I might not have made it somewhere along the line during the year I was shooting the G-19. Fortunately I never won anything or placed either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 A few years ago, at the FL State Match, we had a revolver shooter on our squad shooting an Open revolver in 357Mag. He declared Major and passed the chrono with flying colors. The following stage he failed to knock over a hinged plate with a center of mass hit and demanded that the plate (not popper) be calibrated. The CRO summoned the RM who checked the calibration of the plate with his 9mm (it fell like a rock) and then the RM confiscated a sample of ammo from the shooters belt. The ammo from his belt was extremely sub-minor and his scores were immediately changed to zero. There was a rumor that he refused to go to the chrono and they were forced to use a substitute gun but that is unconfirmed. In either case he did not return to the squad or finish the match. It was a flagrant example of cheating. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 He didn't even knock a plate over?!?!?! That isn't cheating, that is plain stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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