Confession Time . . .

[tightloop]

rhino

I don't care what folks do as long as it doesn't endanger me. Not mad, distressed, anxious, nothing. Just seemed like a strange topic to me, and one where I didn't think anyone who packs during a match would say so...

[shaughn leayme]

Not to go looking for an arguement on the point, but and I imagine that more than one person can relate, many people have had more than one career and sometimes the overlap from the previous "life" could have serious conotations, in the here and now.

Now, why is it always assumed that one is paranoid, because one is taking measures to increase one's safety (sorry to hijack this thread a little, I know this board is oriented towards competition, not CCW) and before someone says that nothing is likely to happen at a range or match, remember that the idea of planes being crashed into buildings was thought to be something, that would never happen intentionally either. While an incident is unlikely, the possibility is there and unless one has metal detectors and security at the door, one will not know for sure if more than just the active shooters have firearms and are carrying.

If one has reservations about someone carrying at a match, how does one feel about the same person, carrying afterwards?

Just curious.

Thanks.

[EricW]

At a match: Never.

During practice out by my lonesome: Always.

Quite honestly, I can't think of a scenario where I would need a backup weapon at an IPSC match, unless there was someone there I absolutely didn't trust for some reason, in which case I would avoid the situation altogether and have a conversation with the match director. I'm about as paranoid as it gets and having a backup gun on my person at an IPSC match strikes me as odd at best. The only conceivable excuse I can come up with is that one simply didn't want to leave his/her carry piece in the parking lot due to theft concerns. (Personally, I'd just unload the gun and bag it, but that's the infidel in me.)

The pretext of this behavior sounds like a Quickdraw at OK Corral fantasy gone awry. The pathetic MF'er(s) that raids an IPSC match is going to get scraped up by the coroner with a spatula, so what scenario do we think we're going to be prepared for here?

[Liota]

Dang it, Rhino!  From the title, I thought this was going to be an interesting thread!  Sorry man!  Packing a back-up gun during a match just isn't great confession material.  You know...... unless you were also wearing your girlfriends panties or something. 

Hey, we have to ease into that stuff! I chose to start in the "comfort zone" and work my way from there! I'm also going to ask everyone how much money they make and if they still beat their kids/spouse/parents.

Holy Crap! Drafty's a lawyer!

Okay, Now on a more serious note...

Shaughn,

If you're at an IPSC match, generally you have plenty of back-up guns. They are the rest of the competitors. Most immediately, the folks on your squad.

Liota

[rhino]

Not to go looking for an arguement on the point, but and I imagine that more than one person can relate, many people have had more than one career and sometimes the overlap from the previous "life" could have serious conotations, in the here and now.

Shaughn:

I commend you for your forthright answer and for adhering to your own principles. I too am dismayed when the "paranoia" issue arises, especially among a crowd of very pro-gun people. As long as you're willing to accept the consequences if you "get caught," I don't think you need to justify your decisions to anyone else, including me.

In some cases, I think it's probably a good idea too.

During IPSC and IDPA matches, I always, always, always make sure I have at least one loaded magazine on my belt until I switch back to my carry gun (or mode in case I'm shooting the same gun I'm carrying). If I could use some of the deeper concealment options more effectively, I doubt that you'd find me anywhere outside of the shower without a j-frame. Everyone knows that inside the shower, you keep a Glock!

Sure, the arguments about all of the people around you who are armed make a lot of sense, but I choose to not rely on others that way. We know how IPSC shooters can react to a threat, but we don't know how most of them will react. If you follow the same argument, you're also buying into relying on the cops to protect you too at some point.

[Jake Di Vita]

Sure, the arguments about all of the people around you who are armed make a lot of sense, but I choose to not rely on others that way. We know how IPSC shooters can react to a threat, but we don't know how most of them will react. If you follow the same argument, you're also buying into relying on the cops to protect you too at some point.

That pretty much sums it up.

[uscbigdawg]

I know of more than one shooter that on their Open gun, taken a base pad from a 140mm mag and placed in on their 170mm mag for a particular stage. Murphy's law being what it is, something seems to always happen.

Rich

[ORCA]

Shaughn:

I commend you for your forthright answer and for adhering to your own principles.  I too am dismayed when the "paranoia" issue arises, especially among a crowd of very pro-gun people.  As long as you're willing to accept the consequences if you "get caught," I don't think you need to justify your decisions to anyone else, including me.

I guess you need to understand that even among pro gun social circles even some behavior is objectionable.

or

If you don't feel safe playing with others, maybe you should just play with yourself...

Just out of curiosity if you truly feel the need to carry that badly do you really feel safe carrying just a J-frame? If I carry 9 out of 10 times I carry either a Glock 27 or a 32, but if I reallllly feel paranoid I carry my old limited SVI backup gun that I converted to 9x23.

[rhino]

Just out of curiosity if you truly feel the need to carry that badly do you really feel safe carrying just a J-frame? If I carry 9 out of 10 times I carry either a Glock 27 or a 32, but if I reallllly feel paranoid I carry my old limited SVI backup gun that I converted to 9x23.

I can't answer that question, since I do not own a j-frame or anything similar in size. Since my commander has been in the freakin' shop since 1998, the smallest gun I ever carry is a gov't model.

[tightloop]

Everyone bow your head for a minute of silent prayer for Rhino's Commander. Anytime a pistol has been "under repair" for 6 years, I don't think it is coming back.

Makes you wonder if the needed repairs were because of a huge flat file or a super high rmp Dremel that weren't used in a suitably restrained manner...maybe he'll share his pain with us and tell us what happened.

[L9X25]

I don't know if there are different levels of paranoia or just different types of people at the ranges, but I feel totally comfortable with 99% of the folks that shoot our local matches. I would like that to edge up to 100% but there are always newbies that show up (thank goodness) and comprise the 1% unknown factor. If I shot at a club where many of the shooters were of questionable character I think I would look for another club.

Some question how their fellow IPSC shooter would react if the unexpected occurred but I feel assured that the majority of my buddies would not hesitate to take command of the situation. Several of the guys in my area have military and Special Forces backgrounds along with the police and SWAT guys. The rest are just crusty IPSC guys.

When we travel to the State or Area matches I will always carry. If several of us are going out to dinner together I often will leave my stuff in the car or hotel. The majority of the guys carry and I feel just as safe with them carrying as I do ROing them on the range. I just try to keep track of who is carrying so that I can avoid getting caught in the crossfire!

Leo

[Liota]

Well said, Leo.

Guys, when I mention all the back up guns being my fellow shooters, it is because we are close enough that I am 99% sure of what they would do when faced with the unexpected. Nothing more nothing less.

Liota

[TDean]

Ah… that’s a big negatory ghostrider.

I’ll subscribe to the theory that if someone feels they need to carry a concealed weapon at a USPSA or IDPA match then they are unduly paranoid.

Why the heck are they going to the match where they feel ENDANGERED enough to warrant carrying, plus risking being lifetime-expelled from the club?

I suggest that if their club and or shooting partners are that "shady", then they stay home or find another place to hang out on the weekends.

[Singlestack]

Amen Mr. Dean

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't think people would do it because they feel endangered. I think it is more of one of those just in case scenarios.

[Wakal]

Some of the folks I shoot with carry all the time because...they carry all the time. Now, that said, I give those folks no end of ...stuff... because friends don't let friends carry mouseguns (at least, not without a hard time). And the only reason I know is because I've shared hotel rooms with 'em

A .32 in the pocket, though...a lot harder to see than a J-frame on the ankle. And "concealed" means..."concealed." If you can't see it, does it really exist? All the hard-line "LIFETIME BAN" howling will never happen if the BUG is concealed, right?

AlexIcarrya9by23Commanderdon'tlookthatwayatmeIdon'tdoitWakal

[tightloop]

It's kind of like the military, don't ask, don't tell.

[Ron Ankeny]

I can't imagine anything more ridiculous than packing a concealed weapon when I have three 24 rounders and big stick at arm's length. Oh well.

[George]

I am interested in this thread because I am sure Rhino is gonna stir the pot even better, later, but right now I have to go on record as saying that there is no excuse WHATSOEVER for violating a safety based rule PERIOD, and that anyone who thinks it is OK to pack hot at a match had better be prepared for the "other" worst case scenario's that could happen to them.

There! Now that I have gotten that out of my system I just wanna know where Rhino is gonna take us next.

--

Regards,

[rhino]

Everyone bow your head for a minute of silent prayer for Rhino's Commander. Anytime a pistol has been "under repair" for 6 years, I don't think it is coming back.

Makes you wonder if the needed repairs were because of a huge flat file or a super high rmp Dremel that weren't used in a suitably restrained manner...maybe he'll share his pain with us and tell us what happened.

Thank you for the compassion, Sunny! At this point, I really need it.

The hammer was following and the tolerance stacking associated with the series 80 parts made it unreliable at best. I ditched the series 80 stuff myself, and asked for some other small things to go with making the lockworks safe (fit a new bushing, undercut the trigger guard, cleanup of the beavertail fit, etc.)

I can't complain though because I've received quite a few "while I waited" gunsmithing favors in the ensuing years.

I am barred by Indiana Law from using a Dremel Tool. In fact, the consequences for me for even approaching a Dremel with the intent to do badsmithery is far more heinous than getting caught with a loaded Kel-Tec P32 on the keychain in my pocket during a match.

[rhino]

There! Now that I have gotten that out of my system I just wanna know where Rhino is gonna take us next.

When I know, I'll be the first to tell you!

Question #2:

Have you ever noticed that the ROs missed a no-shoot or made another scoring error in your favor, but kept quiet about it? Have you ever done so for someone else?

My answer: I've noticed no-shoots and other errors on my targets several times in the past. I have always indicated them to the ROs and even argued my way out of good hits down to bad hits. I've even asked for (and received) procedural error penalties that I knew I made, but were missed by the RO/SO.

Given that, I have also been the only one to notice the same things for other shooters on several occasions and kept my li'l pachyderm mouth shut, especially at club level matches.

[Ron Ankeny]

I have always brought scoring errors on my targets to the attention of the RO. When I am taping targets I just cover the holes unless I find a hole the RO missed. Of course, at most of our local matches I am the RM so people expect me to speak up.

[Sam]

Rhino, you've had a blaster at the 'smiths for almost 6 years? Now that's a truly dark secret worthy of confession! Tell us who he is my son, that we may go there as Moses did, and bid him "Let my pistol go!"

A loaded gun behind the line at a match is against the rules because it is a major hazard. I don't care who is packing it. Here is an additional hazard: "I'm so competent that the rules don't apply to me." I occasionally see some form of gun handling at a match that scares me back to six years old. The thought of several "competent people" packing loaded guns in who knows what kind of holster while running through a COF is a nightmare to me. Since these guns and holsters are concealed, they cannot be held to any standard of safety to protect those in attendance. I don't want to be anywhere near the berm when a cocked and locked Officers Model comes flying out of a concelament holster.

I know most of you guys who choose to break this rule are very experienced and savvy in your choices of guns and carry modes. But admit it, you all know somebody that you would not want to have behind you with a loaded blaster. Legally, morally, ethically, it is the best interest of the sport if we all obey the rules.

[tightloop]

Sam

I agree with your comments and I also agree with Ron. why would I need to carry a hideout gun when I have on the fastest rig I own and over 40 rounds of ammo right on my waist?

[Ron Ankeny]

Sam:

Well said. If a competitor dropped a loaded "concealed" weapon on our range, he/she would be packing up for a trip home. Furthermore, I would write a letter (and a phone call) to USPSA requesting support for banning the competitor for an undetermined amount of time. This is USPSA shooting, not Animal Farm.