Poppa Bear

Is the penalty one procedural or one per shot? If one I would keep all the mags on my belt. If one per shot I would see how fast I could place them in my pouches like everyone else.

The only thing I could possibly point to would be: 1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances. If the designer does not compel you to activate the disappearing target on your way by then a level I exemption in the WSB stating that you need to activate prior to the last shot is the only way to compel the shooter. The penalty would be one procedural so it would be up to the shooter to determine if enough time would be saved to make it worth while. I myself would try to set the target up so that it remained available from an early position after activation. That way it is not disappearing and full penalties would apply.

There is nothing stopping you from doing that provided that you are not compelled to activate the target during the COF. If the activator is a popper then it is something different. 9.9.3 will come into play on that one unless you activate after the COF is over which then it would become a DQ under 10.5.1. I have intentionally designed stages were you could avoid the procedural by performing the desired function after the last shot is fired. I have also designed stages where performing the desired function took several seconds. Which is has the higher HF? Moving the bag and shooting, or just shooting and taking the penalty?

It is true that you would not see a hand activated swinger at a level II or higher because of the error factor. Depending on how it was pulled could affect the rate of the swinger so they would put a mechanical device in the path to make each activation as uniform as possible. This is an example of why we have different rules for level I and Level II or higher. If we had to submit ALL COF's including level I for approval it would be a full time job for a room full of people. They tried something, had some problems, and learned what not to do. You can bet they use a different way to activate it next time. How can how the rope is pulled affect the way the swinger swings? The speed/arch is controlled by weights, not activators. And I'm not aware of any rules that differentiate prop activation between L1 and L2/3. It will depend on how it is activated but a prop stick with the cable running to the base could allow you to pull it out at a controlled speed that reduces the arc and speed considerably. Pulling on an object connected to the cable makes it easier to give a good jerk, pull or push necessary to activate the prop. A good method for consistent activation is to have a weight attached to the cable so that the cable pulls the weight off a platform immediately in front of the prop. Weight falls and pulls the other part of the cable activating the prop.

Sounds like yet another club needs to be reminded of the provisions of 2.2.1.1. Yellow tape on the ground does not meet the requirements of a fault line. Ergo, penalties cannot be enforced against it. (I've had to remind my own club of this many times ... Especially during the winter when we shoot indoors!) Mike that is why we use the red industrial tape. It holds 2x2's in place quite well on concrete floors. If you slide into it hard enough you can still knock it loose but that would also be true outside. On a side note, how are things looking up there? Sounds like you lost a lot of dirt. The outdoor range we shot at was bought, we hope to get back outside next year.

It is true that you would not see a hand activated swinger at a level II or higher because of the error factor. Depending on how it was pulled could affect the rate of the swinger so they would put a mechanical device in the path to make each activation as uniform as possible. This is an example of why we have different rules for level I and Level II or higher. If we had to submit ALL COF's including level I for approval it would be a full time job for a room full of people. They tried something, had some problems, and learned what not to do. You can bet they use a different way to activate it next time.

Not seeing it myself it sounds to me like the cartridge got stuck in the chamber and the slide was not able to close. The cartridge is now cocked in at an angle and striking the backstrap to clear it caused the primer to strike the nose of the top bullet in the magazine. The magazine being in place keeps everything lined up.

Foot faults are part of stage design. Good design has clear faults that make it easy to determine an advantage or not. My problem area with fault lines might be like the 2004 match video linked to earlier. Going prone in a small shooting area that makes it easy for a 6 foot plus competitor to fault while being much more difficult for the shooter under 6 foot to fault. It cannot be helped though because we also have to deal with 6 foot plus competitors being able to see over No Shoots that block most peoples vision and vertically challenged shooters :roflol: that can shoot under obstacles that restrict those of us who are taller. My thought is make it easy and tack one procedural per shot fired. It will not take long for the people to learn to not fault lines or at least get them to speak up if they notice sand and gravel building up as the squads run through so that it can be pushed back into place. They will also spend a little more time checking their shooting position to see what they can shoot without faulting. A big part of the game is mental. Some will say that is too harsh because it might be the difference between winning the match or losing the match. Look at the number of shooters that DQ'ed at Area 3 because they lost focus. A DQ is a lot harder on your match then accruing a bunch of procedurals on a stage.

Being as this is California are the magazines restricted to 10 rounds for the show?

A GM will make almost any handgun stage look easy. Cliff may be a revolver guy but the fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control pass through to any handgun he picks up. Drew never knew what hit him. I also got a kick out of their saying that they did not know if Cliff could keep up when things got physical being as he is a stand and shoot pistol guy. USPSA is stand and shoot??? :roflol:

Fix it by dropping a barrier in place. As part of the stage briefing notify shooters that this barrier is placed to mark the safe shooting distance for the steel. Pass that mark and shoot the steel get a DQ. Place the steel far enough away from the door that stepping through will not DQ you but passing the barrier 3 feet in front of the door will. As part of the WSB tell the shooters they must engage prior to passing through the door. That way they can be hit with a procedural if they pass the door but do not pass the safety limit.

Do not apply so much force clearing the jam. Striking the back strap like you did provided enough momentum to cause the primer to strike against the ejector. My question is why did it jam to start with? What caused the cartridge to stick enough that you needed that kind of force to clear the jam?

It is a situational safety issue. If the shooter seems to be moving towards the front of the table to retrieve the cable I would stop them before they DQ themselves and let them reshoot. It is one of those situations that would only show up in a level one match. Level two or higher it would have been corrected during the safety walk through. This is the type of design error that they will likely never make again, so I would mark it down as a learning experience for everyone.

I'll shoot the top and then it will depend on which way it rotates. I will try to get a good look at it before the stage starts. Rarely is the star exactly balanced so I will anticipate a right or left rotation once the top plate comes off. Whichever side is going down is the one I will take second. Then I alternate the sides because done right the star has little chance to start any rotation. Each plate taken tries to reverse the rotation, so each plate stays pretty close to its starting position.

So are you saying that by setting the die with an empty case to the top in station 4 and lowering and taking an additional 1/4 turn down is not the proper starting point for 40 per dillion? I am about to start loading 40, so just looking for clarification. I start with an empty case. I then seat the bullet until it gets to the OAL I am looking for. Once I have the correct OAL I lock the seating die in place and advance to the crimp die. I screw the crimp die down until it makes contact with the case mouth. I then screw it down a 1/16 of a turn, crimp and measure the case at the mouth. If more than .418 then I screw the die in a bit further, crimp and remeasure. I keep repeating until I get .418", at that point I lock it down.

I was not there but know several who were and my understanding is that there were several stages where it was easy to break the 180 if you ran quicker than you could shoot. It would be interesting to see where the DQ's were at. My guess for the 180's is stage 9 if you were slow at swinging from the right side targets to the left side targets, and stage 12 if you ran past the targets behind the walls and swung back past the 180.

My rough math says they are 165 mm so they would be perfect for an open Glock .40.

I would like to see a listing of bullet lengths listed as part of a cartridges load data. Loading using Round Nose 115gr bullet X with the same weight as Flat Nose bullet Y and knowing that bullet Y has a length of say .650" makes it real easy to determine a cartridges actual area under the bullet used by the powder charge. This is the part that is MOST critical to reloading. Knowing the bullet length used in the manuals data now gives me the ability to verify my load is still at a safe length.

I would say this is a very situational situation. It is true that there is no specific rule that 100% restricts the shooter from going off to an unused bay outside of USPSA control and popping off a few rounds. If said bay is well removed from the USPSA area then no one would probably know any different. If said bay is immediately adjacent to the USPSA bays then we are talking something else. It would definitely be an issue that would be dealt with at some level or another. Even if we could not make the DQ stick, others would know not to take off to an used bay without letting us know about it first. If it was something we turned a blind eye to how long before someone decided to function test their gun without RO supervision in one of the bays under USPSA control that was not being actively used?

Course design is a big part of it. A target that can only be engaged from one position and that position does not have any other available targets is easy to gig. One that is available from 2 or 3 different positions is harder to call. A target available from only one position that also has several other available targets is harder to call again unless the target in question is at an angle that is easily seen as different from the other available targets. Another aspect is the RO's familiarity with the COF's shooting positions. Knowing they have to shoot 8 from a position and only hearing 6 shots is a lot easier to call than a position that can require anywhere from 2 to 12 shots depending on how the competitor set up his plan. I am good at counting competitor shots as they work through the COF, but I am still caught every so often when I think they fired 24 rounds on a course requiring 26 only to find all targets have two holes in them.

OK P-Bear ... Rule number for the portion in blue? (Not trying to be difficult ... Just the 's advocate!) I would use the following: 6.5.3 A match, tournament or league will be deemed to have started on the first day that competitors (including those specified above) shoot for score and will be deemed to have ended when the results have been declared final by the Match Director. Having registered and attended the safety meeting there is no doubt they are officially part of the match. I could be real strict and say once they register but I will give them some slack as long as they are operating under the general range rules, are not handling their gun in a USPSA controlled area, and do not enter the USPSA portion of the range while in violation of USPSA rules. 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. Upon satisfying 6.5.3 any movement to another portion of the facility to function test etc. without prior approval is a direct violation of 10.5.1 and/or a violation of 10.5.13. I have not had this problem yet because either Shawn or myself is talked to prior to anyone wanting to do any shooting outside the match. Even when we have had new people interested in shooting with us for that day they have always asked before pulling any guns out of their bags.

Agreed. With proper supervision, I agree. But if someone were to just wander alone to an empty bay after arriving at the match (THEIR match has now begun) and started popping off rounds calling it a test-fire or whatever, I'd call that being done before they start. Let me get this right. I show up on the range 2 hours prior to the listed start time. Match is held on range 2. I go into the club sign in on range 6 and proceed to range 6 for checks and some practice prior to the match. This disqualifies me? Think of it more like you show up for the match and you decide to stop off at range 6 to pop off a few rounds without discussing it with the match officials. Much of it depends on the layout of the actual range. An area that is outside of USPSA control is generally fine as long as all activity is controlled through the host facilities rules, takes place under the host facilities authorization and it takes place prior to the USPSA match's safety meeting. Once you progress over to the USPSA portion of the facility then you cannot leave to function test your gun without clearing it with match officials. If the entire facility is under USPSA control then USPSA rules are the only ones applicable. When we are indoors the whole range belongs to us. When we are outside we share it with rifle shooters and pistol plinkers who have their own bays unless we are using the range on a day that it is not generally open. On those days we own the ENTIRE range and USPSA rules are the only ones that apply.

My take on a FA that is not safety related is in the case of target that is not "available" from a certain position but by engaging the target from there they shave many seconds off their time. This skews the HF for the stage because even though they have a penalty, like shooting under the wall, it is more than overcome by the reduction in time. Absent a situation like that I think FA should be sfety related only.

Hmmm, careful there: Why would we treat that target any differently from any other target with two mikes on it? To assess the FTE penalty, the RO must be certain that the shooter did not engage the target. Bullet holes in the target are prima facie evidence that the target was engaged, though the hits may not count for score if they passed entirely through hard cover, a no-shoot, or another target.... What I am trying to say here is that if the shooter has no way of "Seeing" the target he cannot engage the target because he cannot know the target is there. If he has some way of seeing the target prior to shooting at it then he can argue the procedural for failure to engage. In the OP's description the target was shot at from a location where the target was not "visible". If the shots took place prior to reaching a point where it was visible then FTE, if they took place after that point then it could be argued that they memorized its location. The key point here being was the target visible around or over a wall prior to it being engaged? Playing devils advocate here, but if you try and argue no FTE because they shot at it then I could stand in one spot and take shots from from 89 degrees left of me to 89 degrees to the right of me and claim I engaged all targets. Even if I could not see them, all you can score me on is hits and misses.

The answer is dependent on your position within the organization. If you are one of the key players within the club, you are one of the parties responsible for controlling gun handling. If you are the one wanting to test your gun, load , whatever..... you notify the other key members of your intent and then go do it. If the party is not one of the key members then they approach one who is and gets their permission to conduct the activity. It is all about safety and accountability. If I know what you want to do and I OK it then you are good to go. If other key members are around I clear it/ inform them of the activity. If we the key members are not concerned with the shooting taking place on another portion of the range then the other members immediately recognize that the activity has been authorized. If I am at all unsure about your abilities I will either oversee you myself or assign another party to oversee your activities to ensure that when you return to the "USPSA match" you are fully compliant with ULSC ICHDH. If the situation takes place during the match then all activities are directly RO supervised from within the active berms. An example being a gun breaks during a stage and the shooter has repaired it. Now they want to fire a few rounds to ensure everything is fully functional and safe, or do they need to bag the gun because the problem is still not fixed. We use most of the usual RO commands: MR, IFUSC, ICHDH, RIC. If the gun passes they are good to go, if it fails or still has problems then try again or bag it because you cannot compete until it passes a function test under RO supervision.