Poppa Bear

This is that problem I posted about a while ago. "the rules don't say I can't engage the arrays any way I want." The absence of the negative supports the positive. A stage designer looks at 1.2.2.3 and says, "the rules don't say I can't stipulate an engagement order," but now the shooter says, "no, it doesn't say you can." Now the absence of the positive supports the negative. It just seems like a double standard and I get a little frustrated. If Speed Shoots are to be considered unique unto themselves, apart from other Special Courses like Classifiers, then I agree that the description needs to be modified to allow stipulating the engagement order, whether by expanding 1.2.2.3 or by including Speed Shoots into 1.1.5.1. Let's remove the double negatives here and make it clearer: A shooter can look at 1.2.2.3 and say, "the rules do say I can engage the arrays any way I want." A stage designer looks at 1.2.2.3 and says, "the rules do say I can stipulate an engagement order," but now the shooter says, "no, it doesn't say you can. The shooter is saying the same thing both times "you cannot specify the shooting order"

1.1.5.1 is a level 1 exemption BUT in my opinion it is one best left to I do not have the necessary props so I will specify what and where to shoot from to overcome the 1.1.5 "Freestyle" rule. If you have the props I think it is better to use them so that the COF would be even Level III compliant.

In regards to the CCW question most ranges I have been at have a designated safe area just for unloading and showing clear any CCW carried into/onto the range. Some request that you notify an RO/SO to oversee the handling. Some just leave it up to the shooter to perform it safely themselves. The first is usually at a smaller more compact range with limited space. The second is usually at a larger range with unused berms that can be used for that purpose. Most people I know just remove the gun while in the holster and leave it all in their vehicle until they are done with the match. After the match is completed they put it back on.

My primary is a Glock 35 but I will on occasion shoot my 1911 which has a flat MSH. As noted above my only real issue is the removal of the safety during the draw. I do not have a big problem with it because the high thumb grip I use with my Glock wants to rest on the safety of the 1911.

There in lies the problem. The intent of our words does not always make it into the WSB. For a Speed Shoot we also need to stipulate what the course is and why they the shooters need to comply with the rules for that stage. I know the first time I set up a 10 to 16 round speed shoot someone will say "That's not legal. You can't have more than 4 targets available from just one position" "And you cannot specify a reload because this is not a classifier"

We use a lot of 4x8 walls set on the short side with the shooting area ending 6 to 12 inches from the edge. You can lean around it but you cannot lean far enough to see everything without faulting. I will look at setting up some legal Speed Shoots and Legal Medium courses that require little to no movement just to give the shooters something different. I will have to pay attention to the fault lines to make sure they run between the shooter and the wall just to ensure they cannot grab the wall without faulting. Otherwise some enterprising shooter will find something to grab onto so that they can keep their balance while twisting most of their body around the wall so they can engage everything.

10.2.1 (Fault lines) and 10.2.2 (WSB compliance) only allow max available shots as defined in 10.2.3 so if a procedural is added on for 10.2.4 through 10.2.9 then total procedurals can exceed available shots. Which is why I did question 10.2.4.

It also works good for Rev and SS Leonard After reading this my first thought was execute the reload while drawing the gun and hose everything with the second mag.

Must execute a reload after the first shot and before the last shot . Edited to add red text

This one I know. You can out-procedural the available shots but you cannot score less than zero.

So probably the only legal ways to specify the reload in a Speed Shoot with more than 8 rounds is to say "The shooter must execute a MANDATORY reload before engaging the final target" or "The shooter must execute a Mandatory reload after engaging X targets and before engaging Y targets" Which gives you T1-T4 and T5-T8 but leaves it up to the shooter to determine what T1-T4 is.

If the stage is Virginia count it is easily handled by saying engage T1-T4, THEN execute a mandatory reload before engaging T5-T8. Procedural penalties will then apply for shots 9-16. If the stage is Comstock then you can also say engage T1-T4, THEN execute a mandatory reload before engaging T5-T8. But you cannot assess procedurals for extra shots fired at T1-T4. You can only assess penalties for shots fired at T5-T8 without the reload. Now if you want to stick it to everybody you can specifically state that the shooter MUST execute a mandatory reload immediately after the 8th shot on a Comstock stage. Now if they make up a shot they have to reload in the middle of engaging a target. OK George killed that one while I was typing.

This is from another thread: Something like "Engage T1-4 with two rounds each, then perform a mandatory reload and then engage T5-8 with two rounds each." Penalties are addressed by Rule 10.2.4 -- note it's per shot fired with no upper maximum, until the reload is performed. Shooter fires 19 rounds without reloading (3 make-up shots) that's 11 procedurals.... 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. But 10.2.3 says: Where multiple penalties are assessed in the above cases, they must not exceed the maximum number of scoring hits that can be attained by the competitor. For example, a competitor who gains an advantage while faulting a Fault Line where only four metal targets are visible will receive one procedural penalty for each shot fired while faulting, up to a maximum of four procedural penalties, regardless of number of shots fired. Granted 10.2.3 refers to the rules above it rather than those that follow. Here is the question. Shooter engages the first array, fails to execute a reload and engages the next 4 targets with an additional 11 rounds. Can you penalize his first array for a failure to reload for the second? Or, would the procedurals cap at 8 because that is the maximum scoring value for the second array?

If SS was 8 rounds for both major and minor I would agree. Then all divisions are dealing with the same restrictions. If Speed Shoots were 9 or less, or 12 or more, then everyone could be on a level playing field. This is why I was comparing it to the rules for a medium course of fire. A medium course does not require a mandatory reload you just need to have some sort of a vision barrier to keep 4 targets or less visible from any one view. The speed shoot can have up to 8 targets visible from one view but to keep it equitable for the SS shooters they have a max of 8 rounds before requiring a mandatory reload.

Please help me understand this one. Everyone shooting revolver or single stack or production will have to do a mag change during a speed shoot whereas limited and open shooters won't. OK, I get that, but what difference does it make? It's not like the divisions are competing against each other. What's so awful about a speed shoot with one string of 5 targets that there has to be rule forbidding it unless you force a mag change? I've been doing some more thinking on this question and my thought process is that if a "Speed Shoot" is anything from 2 to 16 rounds it needs to have an 8 round mandatory reload to make it equitable across all divisions. The problem division being 8 shot SS Major against 10 shot SS Minor. If a "Speed Shoot" was defined as between 12 and 16 rounds then it could be wide open because the division restrictions would force everyone but Limited and Open to reload. I think it comes down to either restrict with reloads or define a Speed Shoot as 12 to 16 rounds.

That's exactly the point. I understand about the whole 8 round per shooting location issue throughout the rules, but I don't understand the why behind it. I could sort of understand this for a field course, you don't want a 32 round course with a single shooting box. Of course, that would be self defeating because no one would show up if that's all you ever did. But we always try and have a nice variety of stages and try and make things as freestyle as possible. This whole thing came to mind because I wanted to set up a speed shoot with 6 targets but to do that, I either have to force a reload or force a move which kind of messes up the whole point of the course - to shoot as fast as you can without hitting one of three strategically placed no-shoots. I asked John a variation on this question: John, How much movement is required to comply with : Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view,? Or is any movement required at all, just insert some sort of barrier that restricts the shooters view to 4 targets at a time? The example I will give is two walls with ports intersecting each other. 1. The shooter CAN lean heavily to the left and then the right. Feet CAN stay in the same location. 2. The shooter can lean to the left and then drop to a low crouch as the upper body pivots to the right. Feet stay in the same location. 3. The shooter is able to just pivot their upper body and view either array through the applicable port. Or would it be a case where even if the shooting area was 4' by 4' and the ports were located at the edges of the area it would still be considered one location? His response: Mike, Good examples. It is best described, can you get all the shoots off unobstructive? In you example’s, yes it is one location, but you cannot fire on more than 4 targets from a single view, it’s like a Bianchi barricade and a box behind it, with a vision barrier extending out on each side of the barricade, you cannot see all the targets while standing in the middle, you have to lean out on the right and left to see them. If you had nothing in front of you and could see 8 targets and could just shoot them from that location/view, it is illegal, if you have to lean, move a couple of feet to see some of the targets and then lean or a couple of steps to get the rest, it is legal. John

That's exactly the point. I understand about the whole 8 round per shooting location issue throughout the rules, but I don't understand the why behind it. I could sort of understand this for a field course, you don't want a 32 round course with a single shooting box. Of course, that would be self defeating because no one would show up if that's all you ever did. But we always try and have a nice variety of stages and try and make things as freestyle as possible. This whole thing came to mind because I wanted to set up a speed shoot with 6 targets but to do that, I either have to force a reload or force a move which kind of messes up the whole point of the course - to shoot as fast as you can without hitting one of three strategically placed no-shoots. Under the one view restriction of 1.2.1.2 couldn't you place a wall/barricade in front of the shooter that forces them to shift their upper body and focus from one side to the other? 6 targets and 4 no shoots can still be shot very fast and still leaves more potential to tag a NS.

I design courses with 10, 12, 16 shots available from one position all the time, BUT the same targets are available from other locations. The Open and Limited guys can stand and hose from a couple of locations, and in many cases much tighter shots, while the Rev, SS, and Production guys have the room to move and reload. It is all about having options. That being said, opening the rules up to require 16 shots from one location without a mandatory reload opens up another can of worms. There are not a lot of shooters who do not already have the right equipment for Lim or Open but there will be some new shooters who do not have their mag extensions, or maybe an experienced shooter who for whatever reason is competing with a stock pistol with stock mags. They are not a to great of a disadvantage if they have room to move and do not HAVE to do a standing reload. Where do we draw the line?

I think it is to be able to legally get around: 1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view. The medium course mandates a location change, the speed shoot mandates a reload.

Not putting empty mags on your belt also leaves you with the I'm in the hole why do I only have 1 mag on my belt situation. Luckily I caught it that early.

I say no because the fault line is a part of the shooting area. The foot would not need to be touching inside the fault line to be considered in. Because the WSB says standing outside the shooting area I would determine that both feet need to be outside the fault line. If the shooter wants to balance on one foot with the other suspended over the fault line ready to step in as the buzzer beeps then more power to them but if their foot is touching then they are at least partially in the shooting area.

This is one of the more difficult questions to answer correctly with the appropriate rule references. Many have a distinct rule or pair of rules that you can point to. In this case it is 2+2+2+2 = 8. This one is a combination of the Appendix + Rule 1 + Rule 2 + Rule 3 to fully define the appropriate rules that combine for the final decision. You know its porn now you just have to site the right rules to make it stick. I'm just glad the entire test is not set up that way.

I bit more complex way of looking at OAL is to measure the bullets themselves. Compare this against the over all length of the cartridge. Deduct the bullet length from the cartridge length and you have how much bullet is inside the case. Take the new bullet of similar weight that you want to load and measure it. ADD the length of the new bullet to the interior case dimension and you get a OAL that uses the same interior space as the known cartridge. This is especially important if you are changing from a round nose to a flat point or even to a semi wad cutter. All three have a different length for the bullet themselves but using the correct math gives you an over all length that leaves the same internal dimensions for all three cartridges.

You could try Thumblers Model UV-45 (Stk #185)it is supposed to handle 1,000 30-06 cases. big Tumbler

Are your pins uniform? Mine had an inconsistent trigger pull, anywhere from 3 1/2 lbs to 4 1/4 lbs. Turns out a pin had a slight taper to it that changed the geometry of the hammer and sear engagement. Had new pins installed that were uniform across their entire length and the trigger stayed at 3 1/2 lbs.