Poppa Bear

9.1.6.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to strike any scoring paper target or no-shoot, that shot will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be. The bold section deals with targets. To expand ....will not count for hits on scoring targets or penalty targets, as the case may be. The area under the wall is still considered hard cover so the targets are deemed as not being hit, therefore not being engaged. The deciding factor here being the visibility of the target when the entire wall is treated as solid. Is there ANY way to see the target from either end of the wall, or over the wall, from the position used to engage the target? If the answer is that the target was at least partially visible then the hits would be treated as misses and there would be no procedural. If the answer is that it was not visible from any point within the immediate shooting area then the target was never available to shoot, hence a procedural for failure to engage. If the shooter never approached an area where the target was available then this further substantiates the procedural call because he never made an attempt to engage the target from where it was available.

I would like to see the holster for a 9MM major AR-15 pistol with a 170MM tubes. It would be legal but I do not think very competitive. :roflol:

GrumpyOne covered 1 and 2. As to the 3rd Rule 2.3 Modification to Course Construction and its sub rules. Change the ability to view the target unobstructed preferably using 2.3.1 which is in advance of the stage being shot rather than 2.3.3 which is after the stage has started.

The insertion of the Mag is #1, then shoot 2,3,4,5,6, Reload (#1) then shoot 2,3,4,5,6.

Are you implying that, on the day before the match, they set up the stages and, with no intent of shooting stages on that day, the shooter goes and puts on his gear and has a cocked pistol in his holster? First, while not impossible, I think this situation is unlikely. Second, I believe setup and tear down are integral parts of the match. (Try holding a match without these functions!) Is there some reason we should not expect the same rules of match safety to apply during these time frames? Were the gun to have been loaded and gone bang (and perhaps hit someone in the foot,) would not the USPSA program at that club been held in part responsible for failure to enforce safety standards? I suspect they would. How about a carry pistol? My take on a CCW falls much in line with Mikes response. It is a case by case basis. If setup is the day before the match and the CCW stays as a CCW then I would let it go. If the setup is in the hours prior to the match I would DQ if they did not remove the gun in accordance with 2.5. To me the match starts on the day of the actual shooting. It is in force for the entire range if it is entirely a USPSA event. If it is only part of the range then only those parts in use for the event are judged by USPSA rules, the remainder of the range is covered under the general range rules.

2 mikes and 1 (10.2.7) procedural for shooting under the wall. I would also gig the designer for poor design and WSB. It should have been noticed that the target was "available" from under that wall and either the wall changed to hide the target or the specific wording in the WSB that "all walls go from the ground to infinity" be included so that a 10.2.2 penalty would be the obvious choice for the procedural. The shooter earned a procedural, but I wanted to say no FTE procedural when I first started reading this thread, but FTE is the only available procedural that could be legitimately given to the shooter due to the course design and WSB. I would have preferred using 10.2.2.

Most of ours are at around 4'. You could get closer but once your muzzle clears the wall why? We do not put them so close to the wall that you need to hang your arm over to get at them, but about 3' behind the wall on angled stands so that you need to be up to the wall before the full A zone becomes visible.

Rule #1 is be safe. You have to walk before you run so take your time and learn the basics. When your plan starts to come to you naturally. You start making reloads on the move while keeping the muzzle down range without having to think too hard. You do not even think anymore about keeping the muzzle down range because it always is. Now you are ready to start running because the safety part is coming to you naturally. USPSA is one of the kings of multi-tasking sports, you have a lot of skills that have to be mastered if you want to be competitive.

Does your bullet look like the factory Win, and does it have the same weight? If so then a similar OAL is fine. If the bullet profile is different then you need to find the correct OAL for that profile.

Only when I trim cases.

Perhaps we are reading two different rulebooks. Mine is very specific that a dropped gun is a DQ, it clearly defines what a dropped gun is, and what handling is. It makes no exceptions based on the part of the body used to 'trap' the falling gun, not does it suggest that two shooters colliding or someone running into a prop is an extenuating circumstance. Sorry, but I just don't see the relevance. No matter how a gun is dropped, it is a dropped gun. Any consideration of how and where the gun is pinned/trapped is a discussion noticeably absent from the rulebook. Trying to qualify the degree of the offense is an interesting exercise over lunch after the match, but it doesn't discount that the offense has occurred. There simply isn't language in the governing rules to permit "grading" of DQ's. The seated shooter with a gun between his leg and the seat, that's a dropped gun and that's a DQ that I will forced to call (rule to be cited dependant upon whether it occurs during a CoF or not). 10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped handgun. Dropped handguns must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will, after checking and/or clearing the handgun, place it directly into the competitor’s gun case, gun bag or holster. Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction, however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification.

There is no single one size fits all answer here. This entire thread is based upon RO opinion and observation. What should not happen is an across the board blanket pardon for anyone who catches their gun by pinning it against their body. There should not be an across the board DQ for anyone that pins one either. There are to many factors that have to be taken into account. Is the shooter standing next to a prop that might have snagged it? Did two competitors collide knocking one loose? Is the shooter standing by himself away from anything capable of snagging the gun? All factors that need to be taken into account to try and make an informed decision. Did the shooter break the 180? RO says yes, CRO says no, Witnesses are split 50/50. How do you decide? I know for me the first thing I will ask is where was the shooter standing and what target was he engaging. That way I at least know if it is even possible for the shooter to have broken the 180. This same line of thought crosses into 'Dropped guns". What does the physical evidence if any say to confirm or deny how the dropped gun happened. Where is the gun pinned? Partially still in its holster? Stuck between the shooter and a prop, chair, wall, .... Perfect example here. Shooter sits down, gun gets knocked loose and gets stuck between the shooters leg and whatever they are sitting on. Are you going to DQ them?? I'm not.

The way "Handling" is currently defined, pinning a gun with anything to anything is a DQ. If you had meant to allow it (which I strongly disagree), you need to define "Handling" differently or get a ruling from DRONI. This is a change that simply does not correct a problem but in fact, creates one. I find it interesting that some folks want to argue about the "intent" of a rule or a definition in the glossary with the people who were in the room and had a hand in the writing of the rule/definiton, and are now responsible for teaching what NROI's position is on the current wording..... When Bill Kehoe taught my first Level 1 class, he passed out his telephone number and encouraged us to call him with him questions, anytime after the class. I seem to remember George doing the same thing last year. I know I've bounced questions off of John, George, Troy and Gary, at a bare minimum -- and gotten prompt and friendly advice from all of them.... Unfortunately this is one of those situations that really is in the eye and opinion of the RO, CRO and RM. My opinion is if they react in such a way that they stop the gun from coming out of the holster and do nothing but keep it pinned in place until the RO can retrieve it, NO DQ as long as it was not their hand pinning it in place. If they stop it in any way while it is on its way down, we have a gray area that needs some attention to detail. Did they handle it or manipulate it, or did they just slow its descent? Hands are an automatic DQ, arms are a possible DQ, Legs are a not likely DQ, but feet come back to a possible DQ. Lets get realistic here though. How many dropped guns have you witnessed going down outside the COF? How many did you know about because you heard the gun hit the ground or heard the call "Gun Down"? How many have you dealt with the involved pinning the gun against their body? My answers are I have never watched a gun go down outside a COF, but I have observed an RO or been the RO that has recovered many after they have hit the ground. I have never dealt with a pinned gun. In all cases the gun was down or on its way down long before the shooter could react to its fall so they had zero chance of stopping it anyways. If they had reacted quickly enough to "Catch" the gun, it was on the ground long before I would have or could have witnessed their use of hands anyway. At this point I would have to rely on the shooters own words as well as any witnesses statements to determine if their hands were involved or not. Without any "proof" there can be no DQ.

Yes if it was the shooters actions that caused the gun to fall like running into the prop. I have never seen one but I would expect that it is possible for an outside influence to cause the gun to fall in a table start. This would be something like a gust of wind blowing a prop over or into the gun. In that case I would call it a REF and after clearing and retrieving the gun restart the shooter.

I don't even do that I run them straight through the press. I use a Redding die to size and deprime and a Redding die to crimp. In between I am using either Lee or RCBS for the belling and the seating. I have tried these loads in several different .40's and they all chamber just fine. I will admit though that 3 or 4 out of 100 do not size properly so I toss them right away. I can tell as I am bringing the handle down and I feel extra resistance at the end of the down stroke. When I look at the case there is now a ring just above the extractor groove. They will not chamber with that groove so in the garbage they go.

I shoot multiple time fired "GLOCKED" brass through my G35. As long as you are not pushing MAX pressures you should be fine. I run about 170 to 175 PF on my loads and have zero problems.

Are you seating and crimping in one operation? If not it sounds like you need to back the die out to remove the ability to crimp the case and screw the seating plug in a bit deeper to compensate. If you are seating and crimping in one operation then STOP, get yourself another seating die and use the Redding just for the crimp. I use a Lee die to seat my Moly bullets and the Redding Competition die to crimp them.

Do you need freefloat for any adjustable gas port or just for some? Was thinking of going that way too. I do not know. My gun came with the standard front sight which is involved in holding the front of the handguard in place. I wanted the adjustable low profile gas port so I installed it along with a full length tube (and a few other upgrades)

I compare it to driving. When the drive is one you have done many times you do not remember anything about the drive unless something happens that is out of the norm. You will remember what happened and you will recall many of the things that happened after that interruption for a while. If the drive is one you are slightly familiar with you will remember many of the things that happened but your memories will be more of a general nature. You will coast through the routine parts but will concentrate a lot more on the parts that now need your attention like the turn-off in a mile or so that you have only made a couple of times. If the drive is in very unfamiliar territory your concentration is such that you remember almost everything about the drive. Shooting is the same way, some COF's or parts of the COF take more concentration than others. The down side to concentration is the mental toll it takes.

Most freefloating is for cosmetic or functional issues. Because I run an adjustable gas port the parts that hold the front of the handguard are now gone. So I put on a full length tube.

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). 5.7.3, 8.4.1, 8.5.1, 10.5.5.1, 10.5.8, 10.5.9,10.5.10 All deal with fingers and trigger guards. The key to all of these rules is allowing the finger to enter the trigger guard. your fingers are part of your hands so as long as your hands are not involved with the pinning then there are no fingers able to access the trigger.

I have re-shot a classifier before. Because I am heavily involved in the running of the match, my head was not in the game and I forgot to switch sides and therefore forgot to reload. Had a blazing time on the 6 targets though. :roflol: Most classifiers I shoot now are good times and either very good hits or I tank them. I am knocking on the door to B, so I give it my best attempt. If that attempt includes snagging a NS or a Mike then I lose enough points that it will not count against my classification. If I shoot it clean then I have a valid score for classification. I am at the point where I am seeing the front sight lift and am calling my shots, I just need to make sure the sights are aligned with the A zone before I break the shot. I have to many targets where the scoring is D-A or M-A because the shot broke before I got fully onto the A zone. A little more time and I will be consistent at getting everything 2-A or A just outside the perf C. Then I can start pushing the speed again. As I think about it a lot also has to do with what the classifier is. Open targets tend to be faster but more A-D or A-C, targets with HC or NS tend to be more 2-A but the times are slower because of the need to make the shots count.

A hint on target setup here. Because most classifiers require a 5' shoulder we took a couple of 12' 2x10's cut them in 5' lengths and ran them through the table saw to make a bunch of target sticks that are EXACTLY 5' long. Staple the target flush with the top of the stick and you have 5' every time. The excess 2' of 2x10 gets cut up for prop sticks etc for swingers.

To me the key issue here is "What is HANDLING" 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. HANDLE –verb (used with object) 8. to touch, pick up, carry, or feel with the hand or hands; use the hands on; take hold of. Using my arm, leg, or waist to trap the gun before it can fully fall to the ground is not handling, using my hand to trap the gun is. I have had two dropped guns, and both times it was on the ground before I could react to it getting snagged on the prop. I have had several more where the gun took a hit but did not come out of the holster. In all of those cases I placed my hand on the butt of the gun to make sure it was still fully seated and then manipulated the locking lever to make sure it was fully engaged. In one of those cases my placing my hand on the butt was sufficient for the gun to LOCK back in place. It had moved enough to come unlocked but not enough to fall out of the holster. In the last case where the gun had become unlocked but did not come out of the holster we will say it was a harder hit that started to rock the gun out but slowly enough for my arm to stop it from falling out of the holster. I am not going to lift my arm away from my body and let the gun go down. I am not going to call an RO over and then lift my arm and let it go down. I will call an RO over and let them retrieve the gun from where it is pinned. Because the RO did the initial handling and because I am now under their supervision when the gun is placed back into its holster, there are no grounds for a DQ. 10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped handgun. Dropped handguns must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will, after checking and/or clearing the handgun, place it directly into the competitor’s gun case, gun bag or holster. Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction, however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification.

Correct The process might have started 30' away so until their actions "establish" them as being in the shooting area by either landing inside the shooting area or in the air with the expectation of landing in the shooting area procedurals will apply.