bigbrowndog

your comment about the 1301 weighing quite a bit more is,....... a bit OFF. At least with my 2 shotguns, both 21" guns set up the same, Benelli showed heavier than the 1301 by about a 1/2 pound. Actual weight not manufacturers claim. Funny though, I weighed both my 24" guns, 1301 and Benelli, the Benelli was lighter just slightly, and it has wood stocks, just slightly being less than 1/4 pound Trapr

Actually the BEST sights are on the standard recurve bow!!! They're always with you and always sighted in!?!?!?!?

either is a good gun, the 1301 will shoot much lighter loads than the M2. mine does 2.5 dram loads easily, my m2 can't even begin to handle stuff that light. less velocity gives better patterns when all other variables are alike. but fewer components makes for much easier maintenance and less things to go wrong in a match, and the M2 has that. personally buy the one that you pick up, throw to your shoulder and say "oooo thats nice" both will do the job and both are good guns, Trapr

If only we could all sit around one night and reminisce, the stories we could share?!?! The laughs we would have,

irons is hard enough ALREADY, it doesn't need to be MADE harder. The other excuse I loooove hearing is,......................... its the same for everybody in your division. spoken by a true DILIGAF!! Trapr

I just realized shotgun tube length has gone the same way as the target distance, "more must be better"????????????? Trapr

a paragraph in post 107, pretty much covers what we all want to feel like when we shoot. We honestly don't want to win when we know we don't have the skill set to do it, but we do want to walk off the stage feeling good about our performance when we know that we should, its frustrating when you watch shooters in your squad shoot plainly visible targets and by the time you get to shoot 3 shooters later, you can't see targets clearly, or worse your RO can't even tell you where they are. That feeling of frustration is what causes people to not come back, at which point we start to make excuses for our frustration. Years ago, Kurt and I used to do an end of year report on all the matches we went to, we'd brainstorm ideas, about the good things and bad things we saw at matches, a lot of what we discussed was based on feedback from other shooters, things we saw others deal with and such. These reports led us to try and implement some changes, as we had lots of friends that put on matches and asked for our opinion. 4moa targets, 1x optics in limited, no shoots on shotgun stages, backers for LR targets, paint LR targets, rifle shooting positions other than prone and in your face, etc. some of these things were accomplished and some we still try and get done. The 4moa target was a big help, its big enough to see and tough enough to hit. but you still NEED to see it. sure its easy to hit from a bench sighting in at the range, but run 50yds and post up on a tree thats moving from your heavy breathing, its a tough target, made even tougher by being placed under bushes or trees, AND unpainted. When MD/RM's decided that 300yds was too easy of a shot, and stuff needed to be moved further out. It was one target, a bonus, then it became 3 targets, then it became who can lay claim to having the furthest target in 3 gun. All the while basing this on a "scoped" rifle, that was high tech at 4x or 3.5x, now we have 6.5x and 8x, we even have some shooting 2.5-10x in TO, why????? Because the targets can't be seen, or they are further than they NEED to be. Guess what,.... Iron sights haven't gotten better like optics, they are the same, the shooters are the same. So in order to have that feel good feeling, shooters have had to go to optics with magnification, why,........ because targets and target presentations have changed. Things need to be tougher!?!?!?!? Basketball is still played on the same size court, the basket didn't get smaller, the ball didn't get bigger, the three point line hasn't moved further away, things don't NEED to be MADE tougher, the people playing the sport will accomplish that by raising the bar of excellence in their own performance.

i've shot it and it sux!! and it can be unfair to the person who brought 30 round mags or 45 rounds mags, versus the guy who brought his 100 round drum. BTW I had the beta mag,.......you also bring up the valid point of how do you score it?? too many people think its a great idea and then its not, perhaps with manually operated guns it would be fine but with autoloaders not so much. trapr

Ah yes the current slang vernacular useage of "glory hole" sight I assume, No Pat not your type of glory hole!! the slang useage........... Trapr

funny you mentioned the pattern shift with the Carlson's LM, my 1301 will not shoot slugs accurately with the Carlson's LM, any where near what it will do the factory IC, 18"groups at 50 versus 4" groups. The IC shoots such great patterns I may wind up not using the LM. Also since I no longer shoot for Benelli, I will have my 1301 at USPSA nats, for anyone that wanted to shoot it with the Mega kickoff, just provide your own ammo. Trapr

co'exprs, I agree its not just lazy MD's, its just lazy all around, people do not want to put effort into learning how to shoot irons, and really who can blame them??? poor prize tables, unfair target presentations, low turn out, etc. trapr

All the iron sight lovers should come to Finland this year, and enjoy a well designed rifle match where IRONS are not a dying division. BTW, what has killed Irons in the USA, with regard to our competition, is simply laziness. Like Pat posted nonwillingness to work at shooting irons, like Kurt and I have posted nonwillingness to place targets fairly and adequately for all competitors, nonwillingness to make all targets as visible as possible, and creating way too many divisions. but then all this has been posted and hashed and rehashed, and laziness prevails. BTW, I went to the range the other day to verify that i could still shoot Irons, since I have been sponsored by an optics company for the last few years and haven't competed with irons, and since I plan on going to Finland this year..........survey said??? when I could see the target I hit the target all the way out to 400+ even on smaller than 4moa targets. Trapr

woo hoo!! official dates!!!!!!!!!!!!! everyone that wants to see how rifle targets should be presented, should plan on attending this match. Trapr

A tip on the Corvette for 308 use!! drill the small holes out larger,.....I don't recall the diameter but Tim Ubl at Taccom can tell you, or Kenny at Nordic. Given the small size of the MB, I personally feel it is much more efficient than the larger MB's, some of the larger ones are effective based on the extra weight, which IMO, is something I'm trying to avoid. Trapr

it works pretty well, until you get a lot of misses, and dirt is splashed on to the backer and the plate, then they become the same color. it happened at RM3G. trapr

I shoot both the 6.5 and 8.5, the 8.5 is heavy and it doesn't come in SFP yet?? we really don't need FFP, and the reticle is very daylight visible when its SFP on 1x, but barely visible in FFP. I prefer the 6.5x, it weighs less, has all the magnification you need, is daylight visible in SFP, and a bit cheaper, plus you only need to find 30mm rings/mounts, and its available in both the btr1 and btr2. That said, the 8.5x is perfect on a rifle that will be used for 3 gun and some long range comps. I've used mine out to 800 with good results. If MD's continue to not paint and hide targets in shadows, we might wind up NEEDING 8.5x Trapr

XS recommends .05 deep, I cut them .075 deep Trapr

I've gotten two welded up from "old reliable" C rums.

Nordic comp's Corvette break is very good, I use it on several of my 308's as well as the Rolling thunder comp with the last port cut off. Trapr

I would agree with Patrick, as well as add, lose control of is not the same as placed there. just because you are no longer touching the gun, doesn't mean it was dropped, we place guns in barrels and safe boxes and are no longer in control of them but they weren't dropped nor is that a DQable offense. I have placed my pistol on the ground and stood up after shooting prone only to bend back over and retrieve it and holster it, it was not dropped but I was no longer in contact with it. on the OP's topic, was it unsafe gun handling,????? maybe, was it questionable gun handling???? certainly, should they be warned, oh yeah!!!,..... DQ'd???........NO. Trapr

on the "good enuf" topic, Kurt and I have a very big friend who goes by the alias "minney mouse" because he thought good enuf was,.......................well, Good Enuf, til he went sub minor at a major match. Some people want to know and some people want to just wing it, the info is out there I can't make you do it, BTW, do you know the different inch measurements for all the LM chokes, for all the different manufacturers??????? Trapr

It seems that I get asked this question a lot by new 3 gun shotgunners, and I was asked it recently so I figured maybe its worth sharing. Too many people ask "whats best" or "what do you use" or "what should I use",........everybody wants answers without effort, well sorry there really is no "BEST", you can do what other people tell you, or use what other people tell you but wouldn't it be BEST for you to KNOW!!! Especially to know what works BEST in your gun with your loads. Well here is how I go about finding out what works BEST in my guns............ I go and shoot different targets at different distances to ensure what each choke and load will do. Fullsize poppers set a bit heavy, heavy plates, and small plates. As well as steel with close set and overlapping no shoot targets, then I set out a full size sheet from a newspaper and shoot it at different distances to see if there are any big areas of no pellets hitting the paper. 10,15,20,25,30,35yds I then write down what distances stuff works at, as an example, LtMod: less than 1" spread per yard, poppers to 30yds, clays to 40yds. Cyl: greater than 1" spread per yard, poppers to 15yds clays to 20yds, etc. The spread is only the effective spread not counting the stragglers on the ends that won't knock over a steel plate, generally you need 4 or more pellets on a plate to take it over depending on pellets size and distance. So I disregard pattern that has less than 4 pellets per 4"x4" area. Now the reason you need to do this yourself is because every gun is different and chokes are different for every gun, my 1301 doesn't need anything tighter than IC, 98% of the time, but my M1 Benelli's do the same thing with LtMod, my M2 Benelli's are a bit more finicky, some do better with IC and others prefer LtMod, my SBE behaves just like my M1's. But guess what I had to find that out by shooting them all with all the loads I use. Yes, you can make general guesses and probably be OK, but if you really want to KNOW whats BEST. you need to go shoot!!!! Trapr

speaking of going one for one, I watched Mr. Miller go one for one 22 times on a stage with all the targets needing to be engaged either at 45* or 90* thru a pallet slat gap with irons the other day, it was quite impressive. nice shootin' bro!! Trapr

it might you just won't know till you try them, there is no way of telling what they put in the gun at the factory. Trapr HRider, my nova runs stuff down to 22gm, so there

can't be done,.......................................................in the USA!! trapr