Wild Gene

After long deliberations, kicking around the three options of 1. trying to modify my SLP (really doesn't seem like it was worth putting the time and money into this platform), 2. Getting an M2 and sending it to Taran (my Super Black Eagle has a lot more recoil than my SLP or Beretta 392) and 3. Getting a 3000 from MOA Precision (haven't returned email, and probably very similar to the M2 anyway), I read this thread and ordered a Versa Max from Benny. Best thing I ever did as a cowboy shooter was to send my '97 into a great smith and have it gone through (it was one of the last ones done by Miss Kitty at Coyote Cap Gunworks). I could do all my own work on my revolvers, my rifle was sometimes questionable (has its idiosyncrasies), BUT, my shotgun never failed me. The best way to make up time was on transitions and the shotgun. I see that as being the same situation in this game. I can't wait. WG

I'm curious if you are confusing your perception of slide speed with muzzle rise? My 6" runs better with the 180's than the 165's. I don't get as much muzzle rise/snap with the 180's, so the gun doesn't appear to be cycling as fast. I would get both rounds and do some "Bill Drills". Check your splits, that is going to be more important than actual slide speed, and go with the one you are shooting better. wg

Thank you Michael! That supports my findings too, except I based mine on actual volume of powder observed in the case. I don't think I could have fit another two grains in a case. I went ahead and lowered my Maximum charge and based my OCW calculations on that. Now I just need an hour to fire my 27 rounds based on their procedure. wg

I have a bunch of the AMAX not the VMAX. AMAX is a HPBT with a ballistic cap on the end. The Steel match shoots 1-3/4" groups, and is much better than the bulk Federal 308 I have lying around in this rifle. I'm hitting long steel, I just haven't figured out the recipe for a 1" group at 100 yards. That is the perplexing part. I had a few friends shoot the rifle and they aren't shooting it as well as I am. I am impressed with the VMAX in my .223 ammo. I'm getting 100 yard 5 shot groups measuring .33" on center from Atlanta Arms Match Ammo and my Seekins Rifle. Too many "Max's"! Haha. wg

No, I want to use a bunch of H4895 and Hornady 155 A-Max bullets I already have. I am going to run the numbers for both MAX loads. All this will do is to give me a few more cartridges to load on the lower end. Where they are similar on the middle to upper end, I will just use the numbers I derived for the higher powder charge. I will then just start shooting, watching for signs of excess pressure when I approach the 44 gr. max load suggested by the bullet manufacturer. I probably should have simply worded my question as "which maximum powder charge do I use, the Bullet manufacturers, the Powder manufacturers an average of the two or the lowest or highest". wg

Rigger, yep, I figured out the same thing when I did the math in my head. Here at home I routinely hit 8x10" plates out to almost 700 yards, if I get my wind right. Shooter, I was thinking the same thing. Just load the whole range of rounds and then shoot away and watch for signs of excess pressure. What I just don't understand, and am getting hung up on is, and probably for no good reason, is why does the Bullet Company have such a different MAX load than the Powder Company. Is there really that much variation in two 155 grain boat tail bullets?

When I look at the Hodgdon Manual for a 155 grain bullet for a 308 it shows a Maximum load of 46 grains. (SIE HPBT) When I look at the Hornady Manual for a 155 grain bullet for a 308 it shows a Maximum load of 44 grains. (A-MAX) Both figures are for H4895 powder but the bullets are different. I am doing the math for the Dan Newberry OCW test. So, do I use 46 as my max load for the calculations or 44? If I use his formula, and 46grains as my MAX load, my loads are 41.4, 42.2, 43.1, 43.9, 44.2, 44.5,44.8, 45.1, 45.4, 45.7, 46.0 and 46.3. I have a couple pounds of H4895, that is why I am using that powder with the 155 AMAX's I also already have. Rifle is 20" barrel, 1-12 twist. Get very good consistent hits our to almost 700 yards so far on steel, but I can't shoot a 100 yard group under 1.75". Today, I shot groups and they stunk (2"), but then I went to the 14" steel gongs and made consecutive hits from 300, 500 and 600 yards easily. I pulled out my AR and shot a .33" hundred yard 5 shot group. I am totally perplexed. I was shooting Hornady Steel Match Ammo with the 308, and it shoots a ton better than the Federal Bulk ammo I have. I know the 155 is probably not the optimal weight bullet, but like I said, I have a bunch of them to shoot up (around 300). Help please. Thanks, WG

Haha, you're probably one of the few that do shoot what you say and endorse. I had a set of revolvers that were the "xxx xxx's" and when I shot on a squad with that guy my revolvers were nothing like his. Same goes for some extra special gun leather I had that was branded with another name. And then there were the factory shooters that used to shoot pistols that had a sticker on the frame, but that was about it. I remember some "production Guns" that if anyone else would have showed up with, they would have been bumped into open, at that time. This is why it is so hard for me to want the "xxx xxx" or "yyy yyy" model made by anyone anymore. But, I gotta say, I would shoot a Taran Benelli in a heart beat, and I'd leave the stickers on too!!! wg

I've loaded a lot of 38, 357, 40, 45's, all kinds of straight wall stuff for cowboy and semi auto pistols, along with some LR 45-70 stuff both BP and Smokeless. I do not know much about bottle neck rifle ammo, but have reloaded some. I am curious if you have your crimp die set to go down a bit too far? I doubt it has anything to do with the issues you are having, but that little ring at the top of the case makes me wonder. I know that when that happened with my straight wall stuff, I would back off the depth a little. It really shortens the life of the case. Anyway, I wonder if this could be slightly bulging the shoulder out? Do you see any obvious rub marks on the rounds you are trying to chamber into your bolt gun? What is the chamber on your bolt gun and what is the chamber on your AR? is one .223 and one Wylde or 5.56? Are you neck sizing or full case? You may not be able to run brass through your bolt gun that has been fired in your AR. With the 45-70 stuff, I would go so far as to only insert the round into the chamber of my rifle one specific side up. I will be curious what people have to say about this.. wg

Good article Graham. I actually referred to it often when I was contemplating a Precision Rifle. In the end, I went with 308. You can buy ammo, you can load your own, components are available all over, and you can use this rifle to play or hunt with. I find myself trying to simplify things, and having one caliber in more than one rifle does exactly that. It also limits the learning curve. Is it the hot caliber in the competition world? No, I would say it is the 6mm, and before that 6.5mm, and before that..... I'm too old to keep chasing rainbows, I'd love to shoot the GAP Grind, or similar competition, but in the end, I went with proven performance and fun to shoot. I do not believe anyone is going to give me grief about not showing up with a GA Rifle in the wrong caliber. Between your three choices, I'd go with the Creedmore hands down. Just because. WG

I take back my first statement. It should be "I chose MOA because people make the whole thing more complicated than it is". The difference between the two is the name and the number of units used to measure a given space at a given distance. To break this down into much more just confuses it. When you threw out that 6,400 and 6,283 or whatever they were, I am going out on a limb here, the difference between the two numbers is probably well beyond the accuracy capability of a rifle and only necessary to calculate something like landing a space vehicle on a specific crater on Uranus. It would be (please correct my math, I'm winging it here) less than 2% difference. At 1,000 yards, that would increase a 5" group to 5.1". Gentlemen, I am certain you will correct me if that is incorrect. wg

This is why I use MOA!

OK, I felt I needed to update my progress with the MVP. Mine has the 20", fluted, sporter contour barrel. I removed the stock scope mounts and replaced it with an EGW 20 MOA picatinny rail. Glass is a Vortex PST 2.5-10x32 FFP on Warne low base mounts. I Glass bedded the recoil lug ONLY. (I'd never don this before, was very easy to do). I stuck a Caldwell Bi-pod on the front of it. I fired a few and cleaned, fired a few and cleaned. I use Shooters Choice and Barnes CR-10 Bore cleaner. Using Hornady Steel match 155's, I am getting first round hits out past 500 yards. Yesterday, I was hitting 8x10" and 12x12" steel from up to 669 yards, prone. Sitting I was able to make hits out at 500 yards on my larger 16x20" "cowboy" silhouette target I made. I am not a rifle shooter dude. I am just learning on my own. A good range finder, dope sheet and a Kestrel go a long way. I am also convinced that shooting groups with my pistols has really helped in my rifle shooting. I have learned a ton from this little rifle, and it really is a joy to shoot. I did share a cool iphone picture on the Mossberg Facebook page that seems to be circling the globe at this time. Not sure if I like that part. Haha. Regards, WG

Great thread, this is why this forum is so good. No BS (haha, ok, some bs) and proven results by people that actually shoot.

do not use the smk's for hunting, there are better bullets available, such as their game kings. does sort of depend on what you are hunting too.

I have an MVP. I went that way because it accepted my M1A mags. So far, it's a real shooter, just not a very good hitter. I didn't expect sub MOA, but was hoping for sub paper plate. I've got a few tweaks to do to it and will get back to you on it. Honestly, it is exactly what I wanted, but still need to get it to perform how I want. I would still buy it over the Ruger, not only because of the Magazines, but because I am not a big fan of the forward mounted optics, or at least the options available in forward mounted optics. With the 1x6 stuff available, I see no need for a scope way out front. wg

In my case, the biggest advantage of the 6" is the ability to focus on the front sight, when necessary, on the longer shots. With older eyes, it makes a huge difference. The shorter barrel may be a bit quicker on the draw, but the time difference of the first shot can never make up the difference of a missed shot. My own opinion is that draw time is much more critical in steel challenge or uspsa matches when compared to 3-gun. It seems like most matches you are drawing on the move anyway. I think the increased sight radius more than makes up for the speed out of the kydex. Happy thanksgiving!

I always thought guys wore the 5.11's, etc, because of the increased room in the crotch, and they way their huevos grow when they strap on that holster???

10 shots inside an 8" ring at 7 yards is putting you ahead of 75% of the keyboard commandos already, and with a stock Glock 27 to boot. Take a class, preferably with someone that is familiar with USPSA shooting, you can add any tactical training after that. I still see people trying to teach and sing the praises of the "push-pull". Instructors that actively compete are usually way beyond that. Never hurts to take quality classes. I'd look at both the instructor in Edmond, and would take a class from Mike in a heartbeat. Sometimes it really is best to get instruction from the best as soon as possible so you know who is subsequently just blowing smoke up your rear. No one is going to laugh you off the range. I really believe that most shooters want to help other shooters as much as they can, BUT you need the basic knowledge to know when someone is full of bs, so you can smile, say thank you and not pay attention to anything they tell you. Random thoughts, wg

Good to see Derek putting out pistols. I really like the simple lines and appearance.

a matt, you do have to admit, it is funny. It can really be disconcerting to someone just getting into these games, but after you get into it, much less so. They have just figured out a way to get a few expenses paid to do something they love to do. You can't blame the shooters for this, I'm betting most of the manufacturers know what is going on too. As far as KC goes, he is going to be an excellent shooter no matter who he is shooting for, as long as his guns function, and can keep up with him. Shooters are just like everyone else. Some have great talent, but in the end are only human, with their faults. Often times, the best way to get around a situation you are not comfortable with is to just get out of it, regardless of the source of discomfort (be it gear, guns or personal differences). We may never know the "why's". It really doesn't matter. I better go feed the cows. Have a great day. wg

KC made a tweet that he was leaving Team Glock a couple days ago. As far as his pistol is concerned, I think it is funny the way several of the firearms manufacturer sponsored shooters don't use their "specifically designed for competition" model. I realize this is a great way for manufacturers to get in a lot of R&D on the range, but it is still funny. A few personal examples I have seen were: -Dennis Ming, aka: China Camp, at a SASS match. I had a set of his signature revolvers, and his were nothing like mine, from the finish to the frame. -Team Glock member xxxx xxxx's Glock that I handled was substantially modified. The trigger geometry was totally different, along with other differences. -A team shooter that was shooting a custom STI that had the Sponsor brand on the slide. -A rifle manufacturer's sponsored shooter that is sporting a rifle built with several manufacturers components rather than their own "competition ready" rifle. This goes on all the time, and while I don't really agree with it, in the long run it does make for a much better firearm for the consumer. Have a great day! wg

Graham, very cool option. That was along the lines of what I was thinking! Stlhead, yes, on the very close targets you are correct, that is why I said mid range targets, but I really agree on your final sentence. Pick your zero and know your holds! wg

Regardless of what I do, I am not good enough to remember to have to hold low on mid range targets. I only want to have to remember to have to hold at or above my targets. Pjb45, do you mean crapola? Haha, sorry... wg

Another vote for Bacon Grease