Bill Sahlberg

Cool videos and thanks for putting them online for those of us who could not get by the 'lottery". CONGRATULATIONS to Pat Kelley for placing 3rd OVERALL shooting in the HM class with nothing but ' "Power Tools" with iron sights. Sounds like another great match and be sure to thank the Match Staff and organizers as well as all the SPONSORS who give so much to this match.

I shot a 608 in the 1996 Nationals in Barry, Illinois and was using a Safariland 002 Cup Challenge. This is one holster that will fit K-N frame guns with optics attached as the front of the holster is cut away where your scope will fit and the holding mechanism is squeezing your cylinder. This holster will fit every revolver made except the 460 / 500 and long barreled guns.

A Compensator is a multi-baffled vertical port that only works effectively under higher pressures like a 38 Super. Any 45 at 165 PF will not work a compensator as well as say a .357. 45s simply do not create enough pressure to effectively work a comp unless you wish for a really hot load with massive recoil at your wrist. Porting a revolver barrel does nothing but lower the speed of the bullet by allowing gas to vent before the bullet reaches the end of the barrel, the actual "jet action" from gasses forced upward is minimal at best. BTW, porting or compensator moves you to Open Class in USPSA, even with a 6 shot revo.

You will notice more recoil but that is waht Major is all about compared to minor. I had found that TiteGroup left too much unspent powder in my cylinder and getting trapped under the ejection star making me HAVE to clean and swab the cylinder after each stage or have trouble getting the next 6 in the chamber. I was using 230 gr RN Jacketed bullets and 4.6 gr of TiteGroup for a 168 PF

Blueridge, It is not a matter of arranging your holster and mag holders at the hip, revolvers will not fit in the Production or Box. Length and width are fine but the box also measures height (from a flat gun) and the cylinder, even of a "K" frame is too wide. However, you may shoot in Open Division if you are gamey enough :-) Revos also can shoot in any other division, except Single Stack of course.

The factory rear blade is too small so I changed mine to a large Millet and opened the knotch to a full 1/4" (.250) so that I can acquire the SDM Fiber optic front sight faster. As far as accuracy is concerned with a smaller knotch, this is a fable as your eyes and brain can center the "light bar" on each side faster in that wider knotch than you can with a tighter knotch. I also changed my fiber optic red to green and like it better on overcast days. I shot real PPC (50 yds) for 15+ years before switching to IPSC / ICORE / Steel and have Bomar Aristocrat Ribs on those guns. I also opened up the rear sight on those and gained better accuracy with a 596 / 600 accuracy over these 10+ years. Almost 55 now, I cannot see the lines on the blade of any front sight anymore with or without bi-focals. Those fiber optic sights are both quick and kind to my ailing eyes.

If you want to shoot major, the brass must be stamped .357 (and yes, you can shorten it for faster reloading) Major is easily made by the 625 and will not have as violent of recoil as the .357 major. The question in shooting the 38/357 revo, is at what speed can you hit the A zone. If you have mastered a revo for accuracy and can shoot faster A's with minor than major, stay with minor. However, if you can only shoot fast C's & D's major will not cost you so many points. I started in 1988 with 625s and still love them, havng come from PPC and Police competitions, I like the 38 Colt Short in my 5" 627 as the recoil is much less and I can put A's on demand on even partial targets quicker than I can shooting 357 and the reloading is much quicker too. Try a few El Presidente's with both major and minor loads and compare your scores, this is any easy test to see which is best for you. I have found that my time is faster on a static reload with 38 Colt Shorts than 38 Special and 357, thus saving me time and improving my hit factor.

BTW, I am speaking only of Production Division, revolver divison, limited, and open do not make this "box" nor care about any length, width, or height requirements. Bill Sahlberg

Sad to say, the 627 revolver will not fit in the "box" as the cylinder is too big. Look at the specs on the box inside the USPSA rulebook as the measurements of the box are width, length, AND height. The grips may make it but the cylinder is too big.....I would think that any industry production revolver would work but I am not the one making the rules. Bill Sahlberg

Pat, I shoot 38 Colt Shorts from my 5" 627 with good results. My group us under 2" at 25 yds everytime off a bench (no quite so good offhand) I use a Montana Gold 130 gr RN .356 in Starline brass, with a Federal 100 primer and a tight crimp at 1.100" OAL. I shoot only Universal Clays 4.6 gr and consistently chrono at 1050 fps which is minor. Look at the 2008 Area 1 revolver results, I only won the standards stage...and that was shooting these bullets in minor. (16 A's and 8 C's) I can shoot 15 stages without swabbing the cylinder even once. TiteGroup is not clean burning in the 38 Colt Short and you will find powder residues building up under your extractor star. Bill Sahlberg L1283

The post noted has lots of good info. You will soon regret trying to shoot lead bullets as they will make your cylinder dirtier and harder to reload. The tight crimp is important too, re-read the last post. If you do not crimp your bullets, they will start to back out of the case and give you very inconsistent velocities and groups. I use Montana Gold 130 gr RN .356 Super at 1.100" OAL in StarLine cases, Federal 100 primers, and 4.6 gr Universal Clays. In my 5" bbl 627. I get very consistent loads and very accurate at 50 yds with @ 1050 fps. I have used this same load for 10 years and I can shoot 15 stages without ever having to swab my cylinder at all. You have a good expensive revolver, now is not the time to try to save a few bucks per 1000 in lead bullets. When you use the best, you can expect the best results, when you use cheaper components, you can not expect the same results. I have never seen a Double AA funny car use anything but Alcohal / Nitro-Methane in achieving those 300 MPH speeds in the quarter mile....but I suppose they may run on 88 octane.......all of us have experimented with many different loads and you have the benefit of our experience.....use it to your advantage! I am stubborn, stupid, and yes, I have a ton of left over powders and bullets that I will sell you very cheap :-) Bill Sahlberg L1283

Jim, You are on the right track but forget the 9MM. Read the post above on .38 Colt Shorts. My .38 Colt Short load is a 130gr RN MG with 4.6 gr Universal Clays, StarLine 38 Colt Short brass, a Fed 100 primer, 1.100" OAL and a tight crimp. This gives me 1125 fps easily making minor and shoots well at 50 yds. My brass has been loaded 15+ times and I have very few cases splitting. DO NOT bell these cases with your powder measure, this causes the cases to split much more than a tight crinmp :-)

I bought 3 of the first run of S&W 627s at the 1997 Shot Show. These were already cut for full moon clips to compete against the Taurus 608 that was the first 8 shot 357 mfg and they came out in late 1995 and retailed for $329. Gunsmith Mike Gurule' of The Old Gun Shoppe in So CA would machine the cylinder and had Pan Pacific make full moon clips for the 608. I shot a stock iron sighted 608 with 38 Specials making major at the USPSA Nationals.Tetsu Murada that handily beat me with his Charlie Prest RPM 38 Super 8 shot. RPM made these first 8 shot supers before either Taurus or S&W saw the light. They would take your SS N Frame with an additional $1800 and in 6 months make you a full moon clip 38 Super 8 shot. Vic Pickett still shoots one of his and I know several others that still own these guns today. As to any 627s ever being made without being machined for full moon clips, I have never heard of any...possibly the 627 6 shot 38 Super. There is your history lesson on the origins of the 8 shot revolver! Merry Christmas!

Like mentioned above, "if" you make your revolver a full moon clip revo and you shoot .38 Super factory ammo in minor, you can alter your 39/357. However, once you start with a major load in 38 Super you must shoot it from a 357 due to the pressures. Most people (including revo shooters) do not know that factory 38 Super chambers and fires from 38/357 just fine as these are 130 gr at 1000 fps. Why not just buy a 627 that is built for 38 Super? I have shot revos since 1972 and never had the desire to buy a revo in 38 Super....however, my Open guns are all 38 Super and it would have been easy to load for. I shoot lots of 38 Colt Short (in minor) through 627s, 686s, even Model 66 in competition as the speed of reloading s shorter round has always offset the smashing force, noise, and recoil of a 357. Good luck on your project, I think you will find that you are only going to ruin a good gun though..... Merry Christmas to all and a Happy & Healthy New Year! Bill Sahlberg L1283

Carl, I have been there every year so far and always look forward to this match with its challenging COFs and with some actual rifle distances! My application, check, and a Christmas Card are headed your way in the snow storm via USPS. This is way too good of a match to miss.......

I came from PPC (1975-1990) where brass would seem to last forever with 148 gr HBWC and 2.8 gr of Bullseye using a 6" bbl with a Bo-Mar Rib. In 1997 I bought 2,000 rnds of STARLINE .38 Colt Short brass when I started shooting .38 Colt Short in my S&W 8 shot .357. I still have one box (1,000) unopened and have reloaded most of these cases 30+ times. I have just started finding some rims starting to split this past year and I throw them out. My load is Federal 100 primers, 4.2 gr Universal Clays, 130 gr Montana Gold RN .356 bullet, at 1.100" OAL and a tight crimp (.0002) This nets me 1100+ fps and is still very accurate at 50 yds. At the 2008 Area 1 this year my 5" 627 and I won the Standards Stage with 16 Alpha's and 8 Charlie's. I sucked on all the other stages but is load accurate enough? I haven't changed anything in 10 years so I would say so!

EEH, There are several awesome revo-smiths around the country that can work on your gun to make it super reliable and SAFE. I have never heard of this procedure and I have shot revo competitively since 1975. Though a gunsmith charges so that he can make a living, they also have the years of experience necessary to do the right work. Reliability and trigger jobs are @ $100 and well worh the $. After 30 years of revo shooting, I still send ALL my guns to a gunsmith. Saving money should be done on paper targets, never smithing, bullets, or primers :-)

Sorry man, I don't like doing this on line, I would rather say it to your face, but (I don't care for your) philosophy!! This sounds like its coming from someone that has never won anything and is (unlikely to) ever win a competition. Notice I said competition. It's all about competition first, and then everything else falls in line. Nothing against people working their way up in the sport. The last time I checked we generally tend to reward success in both sports and in the way we do business. We should reward the top level shooters with the best prizes and I would expect nothing less. The people who generally disagree with this are those who are jealous because they are incapable of winning. Most of us shoot for the love of the sport, but hell yeah, it is damn nice to win a gun or a top level prize now and then. It's not that we "deserve" it, we WON it!! The reward system is also what makes people work harder to get better. We all support the people that sponsor the events and to think that just because a top level shooter wins a prize and sells it does not make it any less promotable to the original sponsor. Regards, Jack T. Jack, et all; Please read my post again. The context of my statements are mine personally for the matches that my club runs in the NW. My disclaimer is that variety is the spice of life and what drives match organizers to better matches. Many disagree with my philosophy, that doesn't bother me at all. It is highly doubtful that many of you will be attending any of our local 50 person matches in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho anyway. As the Marketing Director of MGM Targets, I look for who will promote MGM and advertise MGM the best so that current and future sales are increased. Where do you think all this sponsorship money comes from anyway? It comes from profit! Our profits that can either be put into magazine ads or go to matches in way of sponsorships of prizes. MGM supports hundreds of matches each year with many of those matches never even asked to sink a dime into these target costs, all we ask for is good promotion. Bill Sahlberg

There is no "inequity" with the random draw as everyone has the same chance in winning whatever prize is selected. By order of finish is fine, most matches are that way. However, as stated above a winner in one Division gets a prize worth $2300 and a winner in another Division gets $500. Why go to these matches just to pillage a prize table? Maybe because you think that you "deserve" something because you worked harder, trained harder, and shot more? As a sponsor who gets 300+ requests a year, we look for more sales and more publicity so that we have the profit to give back to the industry. As stated earlier this mentality breeds greed and pushes sponsors away from helping. Sponsors want more sales and more customers and the Top Dogs have everything they need. Am I a Democrat? Hell no, I believe in capitalism to the core. Do I want to spread the wealth? Hell YES! The 50% winner of a new piece of equipment will treasure that equipment and tell everyone how great the company was that sponsored it. if it is a gun, it will probably be kept as a keepsake forever continually giving the promotion back to the sponsor that we all hoped for and wanted. A top shooter that wins a $750 gun, baa, sell it for $400 as he wants the cash and will not do any promotion whatsoever. Who is perpetuating the sport? The newbies and 50% shooters, the top guys are staying around for the thrill and fun, those under 50%, well honestly speaking, many are destined to find another sport...... I am not saying that everyone should change to a random raffle prize distribution, I just gave you the defense of why we run our matches that way. I also do not think that all matches should run the same scoring nor have all the same stage design. What makes America great and keeps our shooting sports alive is change, innovation, and freedom to think outside the box. If you do not like a way a match runs, a type of scoring system is used, or the way a prize table is distributed, just stay home and vote with your wallet. Bill Sahlberg Marketing Director MGM Targets www.mgmtargets.com 1-208-989-7511 "This may rub some people the wrong way with this philosophy, but really what does the "Top Shooter" really need? Another gun to sell? Another scope to sell? An unwanted Gift Certificate for somethingg that he already has? This game is NOT about the best shooters as much as it is about bringing MORE shooters into the sport. Don't forget here, the Top Shooters have the same chance of winning that AR15 as does the first time shooter".

Like what was already mentioned above, shooting matches should be about shooting, NOT prize tables. However, there are very different opinions and since the last post doesn't like the random raffle, I thought now would be a good time to state my .02 cents. First of all, no matter which way a prize table is distributed, these prizes are ALL ABOUT THE SPONSORS, not the shooters. We get some prizes for free, some with deep discounts, and still some must be paid for at full price. It is paramount that the Match advertises the Prize Table distribution BEFORE the match. If you do not care for the way they are running it, simply stated, stay home! The matches that our club in the great NW run are by random raffle, we get 50 shooters and we have $5,000-$10,000 to split up on the prize table. Nobody goes home without a prize at least worth half their entry fee. All the Trophies and awards are by order of finish but the prizes are given away by random shooter number. At the shooters meeting, before a shot is even fired, we "raffle" the biggest prize, this year it is a DPMS AR-15 worth $750+. Two years ago, a 12 year old Junior won a very tricked out DPMS AR-15 worth $2,000. There was not a single shooter there that begrudged this Junior as we will be pushing up the Daisies while he is still shooting this rifle! This may rub some people the wrong way with this philosophy, but really what does the "Top Shooter" really need? Another gun to sell? Another scope to sell? An unwanted Gift Certificate for somethingg that he already has? This game is NOT about the best shooters as much as it is about bringing MORE shooters into the sport. Don't forget here, the Top Shooters have the same chance of winning that AR15 as does the first time shooter. We also have several prizes that someone will designate as a "Crease Award" or the closest to 50%. Why? This 50% person is the backbone of our sport, he has got good enough with whatever equipment he has but most likely is going to stay in the game and get better. This person needs better equipment than the Top Shooters. No matter what way you decide to give away these prizes, two things must happen. First the SPONSORS get their due recognition and promotion and the Match Administrators must advertise up front how these prizes are distributed. The awards are definately about shooter placement but the prize table should be 100% about the SPONSORS! Bill Sahlberg

I have shot Montana Gold bullets since 1994 with no problems as others described on this Forum. I just shot the Area 1 very poorly, however, I won the Standards shooting a .38 Colt Short with 130 gr .356 RN at 1100 fps in minor. Accuracy and speed are part of the game, I am just weak on the power portion. I shoot these because I can purchase almost twice as many as I can the 45 acp 230 gr RN. Overall, Montana Gold may cost a few bucks more per case than the competition but their accuracy is second to none and they support the shooting sports like no other. I find it odd that we put so much money into guns, gear, and traveling to matches but want the cheapest piece of lead that we can buy? This is likened to a 3,000 HP dragster wanting to break 300MPH but the nitro-metane alcohal costs too much so they just buy unleaded with 10% ethanol. Now they start complaining that they cannot reach 300MPH, what do you think needs to change in this analogy?

None of my 625s have ever been "cut" for moonclips they are just .020 spaced away from the breach face. However, my 627s are cut so that you can shoot with or without full moon / half moon clips. The earlier (and better made) S&W revolvers also had recessed cylinders and pinned barrels when quality was more important than just price. These features went away along with very good "smithing" from the factory when they decided to market S&W on price instead of quality. we are now use to buying a revo and send it to the gunsmith for $500 worth of work before we even shoot them......something is wrong with this picture :-) Bill Sahlberg

The 16th Annual Inland Empire 3 Gun Match specifics are at www.sppl.us and this match is limited to the first 50 entrys. The rules, divisions, and scoring are on the website. There is no Match Hotel as Coeur d'Alene is a lake city destination. However, the Super 8 (800-888-8000) is on I-90 and just one exit from the range turnoff and all the restaurants are close to it. This is a two day match with a Pig Roasted at the range for Saturday's lunch. The match consists of only 7 multi-gun stages and a 3 Man Team Event on Sunday while the final scores are coming in. There are 20+ plaques awarded in order of finish and a random draw prize table over $5000. This is a fun match with stages that will test your skills on all 3 Guns, rifle at 10 feet to a 400 yd bonus steel target. @ 100 rnds per gun with 10-15 slugs. The Match has been Sponsored by DPMS the past 8 years. Randy Luth has donated another DPMS AR-15 rifle that will be given away at the Saturday morning Shooters Meeting before a single shot is fired. Two years ago a very custom DPMS AR-15 worth $2000+ was randomly awarded to a 12 year old Junior! This match is filling up quickly, email me with any questions at thesahlberg7@webtv.net

Jerry is almost human and can be beaten in competition,, just not with a revolver :-) The scores I saw are "interim" at www.uspsa.org and Jerry has only shot 6 stages....he is FIRST place on all 6 stages. My money is all on Jerry but someday he will be old with bad sight and crippled like some of us and may have to succumb to a 2nd place by someone young with good eyes and fast reflexes. Jerry is King for a reason............practice, practice, practice! Bill Sahlberg L1283 and proud to be only 74% of Jerry on the USPSA classifiers

My first 3 Gun Nationals was in 1991 in Marysville, WA. I was squaded with Michael Voigt who won the match against a heavy favorite named J. Michael Plaxco. USPSA has had these 18 years to try to consolidate the 3 Gun shooting community but has failed to have the ideal "one umbrella" that we all long for. Why? Most non-USPSA 3 Gun / Multi-Gun events are better managed and more creative because the match staff is not quarentined by the USPSA pistol rules trying to govern long guns. Prize tables help, whatever scoring method one chooses, and good ROs make great matches. No matter what the scoring method used, no matter what the stages are like in quality, and no matter what rules govern, the Top Dogs are still the Top Dogs because of the skills they possess. I was at the match that MV was talking about with Horner scoring and unlike the 'whiner' in Mike's article, I was aware of the rules and scoring before I came. How can somebody go to any match without knowing what the match is all about? The Horner scoring does reward accuracy and I personally liked this scoring method never seeing it used before. With all that said, every competitor at the match had to shoot the match the same way, same rules, and same scoring. It is too bad that some of the best shooters in the country come to any match thinking that the match should be all about them instead of about the entire competition. Bill Sahlberg L1283