How to run the Nats (discuss) - split

[remoandiris]

I don't understand your last comment about the excessive RO package. You chose to volunteer your time and $$$ to help run the match. There is nothing stating that you should be committed to working that same match year after year. If we had the bulk of USPSA members that attend large matches willing to do what you do even once a year that would more than cover what is needed to staff these big matches without causing excessive expenses for the match. This is what I was talking about before. We need to foster the "Give back to the sport" mentality. The more of that we have the better off we all are.

In the last paragraph of post #46 you mentioned excessive RO packages. What is an excessive RO package?

Actually I didn't volunteer my $$$. I ended up spending $200 to cover my total costs. Had I known before the match I would lose $200, I probably wouldn't have worked it. I don't RO to make money, but I don't do it to lose money, either.

You mention the majority of USPSA members volunteering to RO. Again, we can't even get the majority of shooters at a local match to routinely help. How the heck are we going to get the majority of members who attend a big match to work it? The majority of members pay big busck to shoot at their best. Good luck shooting at your best after ROing all morning.

[Flexmoney]

I had one Area Director tell me that only responsibility the President has is putting on the Nationals. Maybe that is true,...

Huh? Sounds like a break down in communication there. What might have been meant is that the President is the one that is responsible for the Nationals (read the USPSA by-laws)...not that the Nationals are the only responsibility.

[MarkCO]

remoandiris, I don't know if this is Charlies answer or not, but it is mine.

Total cost to shoot a major is like $1000 or so. I have heard we spend $600 or more per RO. If ROs could shoot the match and work, it would be reasonable to me for that RO to come out of pocket for say $400 or so which would save USPSA maybe $300 per RO, or like $15K. Every RO does not need a car either. When I RO'd in Tulsa, I hitched a ride to the range from another RO who did dirve and took the shuttle back and forth to the airport.

[Chuck Anderson]

The Nationals, as it stands, is different than Area and other lower level matches. The level of officiating should be the best of all the matches held in the country. This is the big show. Having different RO's for different competitors can cause problems that we see at Area and sectional matches. Little stuff like inconsistent start positions or having the AM RO say you can do something that the PM RO says you can't. For the posters that say we should have a staff match and that would solve some of this. A little history might help. There used to be staff matches at Nationals. In general it was a day or two before the match. The staff didn't normally finish all the stages, and their results weren't included in the final results. The majority of RO's didn't shoot the staff match for various reasons, too much to shoot then work for 5 days or longer with B2B matches, didn't like to leave their guns in the hotel room, etc. Whatever the reasons were the staff matches quit happening because the majority of the staff at the time didn't care to shoot them. With the current format we have it might be possible to run a staff match before the first match in a B2B but I can't see giving the staff two days between matches so they could shoot and make the rest of the competitors just hang out.

Not to say it isn't something that we couldn't try again in some format. Personally, I want stage dedicated RO's working the same stage the whole match and having that level of consistency. I want to see a National Champion crowned because that person is the best shooter, not because they got away with something the number 2 guy didn't.

[Sin-ster]

If we had the bulk of USPSA members that attend large matches willing to do what you do even once a year that would more than cover what is needed to staff these big matches without causing excessive expenses for the match.

That's a very good point, Charlie-- and it's got me thinking.

Lets compare the officiating of our sport to one of the more mainstream athletic pursuits here in America-- football, because it's easiest. For the sake of the competitors, staff and the organizational body as a whole, the ROs working Nationals should be the cream of the crop-- much like the crew that runs the Superbowl. In that vein, we can consider L1s like regular season games, L2s like Divisional playoffs, and L3s like the Conference Championships.

Obviously, the big difference here is that the NFL officials are getting paid. (Pretty damn well, from what I know.) At the same time, they could (should?) have something in common-- a certain level of pride/prestige associated with working at the sport's highest level.

What we do as shooters, plain and simple, is compete. And though many are there to socialize, keep sharp on their shooting skills, etc-- I have never once seen someone who does not want to win, be it in their own Class, against their friends/family, or simply over their own expectations. I think capitalizing off of that nature (inherent to all of our members on some level) would not only increase the RO pool (thereby lessening the burden on those who work our Major matches), but simultaneously ensure that "the best of the best" are making things happen at the largest match our organization puts on year-to-year.

In lieu of laying out a full plan of how to make this work (Phil can ask me for one if he likes), I DO want to state that "years of experience" are not necessarily a pre-requisite to being a good RO. I personally know of two new ROs who worked Nationals this year, and they were both instrumental to making their stages "tick" this year at LPR. The point being that "past time spent" should not be the focus, but rather pure merit as a volunteer-- thereby opening the door to everyone with an RO certification.

If we can figure out a way to make ROing Major matches a joy instead of so much of a chore, it would necessarily eliminate a lot of the problems we're talking about in this thread. Put the spotlight on folks who do a good job of volunteering at all levels-- a blurb in the monthly Front Sight (I'll write it, even), post-L2 and L3 surveys for the shooters in regards to who they felt did the best job as an RO, etc. Make it something of a game-- a competition within a competition-- and you'll be appealing to a larger audience from the jump.

An open call of "we need staff for Nationals" garners a much different reaction from those hearing it than the focused statement "in light of your exemplary volunteer performance across this season, YOU have been selected as a candidate to work Nationals this year." In my experience, folks not only tend to do a better job at any given task when they take pride in it-- they're also happier to do it (i.e. eat the costs, put in the hours, etc.) at the same time.

And from that foundation, it should be much easier to approach changes in the normal procedures. With more folks willing to work, it becomes notably easier to let them shoot as well; the 6-on, 6-off method (which I love BTW) is facilitated through sheer numbers, as are "swing shift"/break groups of volunteers. And because you're pulling these workers from the pre-existing body of competitors, the burden of travel and lodging costs would also be lightened as folks have already budgeted the trip in the first place.

[motosapiens]

I can't speak for anyone else, but as a relatively new RO who worked nationals this year (and learned a LOT), it would not have been feasible for me to work the match if I had to pay all the expenses. It's a TOTALLY different situation than working a state-level match (which I also did), where I don't have significant driving or hotel or food expenses and the whole thing only takes 2 days total.

You're already asking people to give up pretty much a full week of vacation to volunteer. However, being able to shoot would change things. Perhaps breaking things up so two big classes (production and limited) aren't stuffed into the same period will make things easier.

[MarkCO]

Great points Bo.

This might ruffle a few feathers, but historically, we have not had the "Best of the Best" working Nationals and even some who, while certified probably have not completed an actual field course of fire with a gun in their hands in years. Conversely, some of the best ROs work their tails off all year working other matches and running local clubs and then look at a Nationals as a "break" from the work...that I don't want to see discouraged. But I personally think that the criteria could use some tweaking and your suggestions have merit. I did go look up some names of ROs from this years nationals and there are several that not only did not shoot a match this year, but some who have not shot a match in several years. Heck, if Amidon can find the time to shoot several matches a year, certainly ROs who work nationals should be active participants in the sport as well.

[remoandiris]

remoandiris, I don't know if this is Charlies answer or not, but it is mine.

Total cost to shoot a major is like $1000 or so. I have heard we spend $600 or more per RO. If ROs could shoot the match and work, it would be reasonable to me for that RO to come out of pocket for say $400 or so which would save USPSA maybe $300 per RO, or like $15K. Every RO does not need a car either. When I RO'd in Tulsa, I hitched a ride to the range from another RO who did dirve and took the shuttle back and forth to the airport.

IMO, if a person is shooting 3 days then ROing 3 days, the costs of the first 3 days are on the shooter. The ROing days are on the match. Travel costs might or might not be a factor for some people.

There are a lot of ideas floating around and I am sure this isn't the first time some of these ideas have been brought up.

[Sin-ster]

When I RO'd in Tulsa, I hitched a ride to the range from another RO who did dirve and took the shuttle back and forth to the airport.

I drove one of the ROs to the range on the last day of LPR Nationals this year, as a competitor.

He is, of course, one of our local guys-- and was in my RO class, no less. But I would have gladly done it for anyone; I had already shot (and tanked) his stage two days earlier, so there wasn't even any advantage to be gained!

[motosapiens]

certainly ROs who work nationals should be active participants in the sport as well.

Why? is that the case in other sports?

In the motorcycle racing world, alot of the volunteers are folks who used to race, but are older and no longer have the time or energy or whatever to train for racing. They see it as a chance to give something back to the sport and still be around something they love.

I have no problem with RO's that are no longer interested in competing seriously themselves.

[MarkCO]

Why, because working one match a year, they will not be "in practice." In MC racing, the physical requirement is not there. In basketball and football, where fitness is important, there are physically fit officials. We have some officials "out of position" due to physical limitations. That compromises safety and scoring.

[remoandiris]

Why, because working one match a year, they will not be "in practice." In MC racing, the physical requirement is not there. In basketball and football, where fitness is important, there are physically fit officials. We have some officials "out of position" due to physical limitations. That compromises safety and scoring.

What makes you think they work only 1 match a year?

If an RO is not physically capable of working their particular stage, that seems like a match management issue, not an RO issue. Put the appropriate RO on the appropriate stage.

Edited December 11, 2012 by remoandiris

[Hi-Power Jack]

Did I read here that we spend c $100,000 for RO expenses?

How many RO's do we have at the Nat'ls? 45? 90?

Is it necessary to have 4 RO's at each stage, or could we have 1 or 2 RO's

and 2-3 assistants (possibly not RO's)? Do all four have to be RO's?

[pjb45]

As an unfair comparison; look at the Desert Classic! It is the best match year after year in the country. It has a great foundation to put on a great match; 1) Rich and his crew do an outstanding job each year, 2) the ROs are great, 3) Polle does an incredible job with Stats, etc. 4) Paul has been the Ramrod for a few years now and it shows is how well all components of putting on a great match come together. I am leaving the inventory of props out of the equation because they are unlike any in the country but that is due to the overwhelming support from the club to buy props.

Rio Salado has an exceptional volunteer base from which to work. It is well organized and if I remember correctly these guys begin preparation for the next match shortly after the completion of the match.

Successful matches are a result of great organizational skills, a superior work plan, and great staff. How can these guys a put on a great match and Nationals be so sucky!

[motosapiens]

Why, because working one match a year, they will not be "in practice." In MC racing, the physical requirement is not there. In basketball and football, where fitness is important, there are physically fit officials. We have some officials "out of position" due to physical limitations. That compromises safety and scoring.

There is certainly the potential for a problem if you have an infirm or immobile individual running the timer on a stage with alot of movement. I don't know if they take that stuff into account when assigning folks to stages. One of the questions on the RO application for nats had to do with physical fitness and capability of keeping up on a field stage.

But I don't think there are (m)any RO's that work nationals and don't work or shoot one single match the whole rest of the year.

[deacon12224]

I worked Nationals this year on one of the dreaded two stages in one bay areas. Needless to say, three of us worked three days from the moment there was enough light to shoot until you almost had to score with a flashlight. We ate lunch everyday with a timer in one hand and a cheesburger in the other. It certainly would have been great to have some time to take a break, but for any number of reasons, that didn't happen.

With that said, the Nationals has got to be about consistency and fairness. The same CRO should be on that stage from the first shooter to the last. Ideally, the same ROs should be on the stage as well. I don't see any other way to make sure that each competitor has the same exact experience on each stage.

Also, as much as I would have liked to shoot in the match that I worked, to be an official and a competitor in the National Championship match would at least appear to be improper. I know that pretty much every match in the country allows this out of necessity. But at the Nationals, the appearance of impropriety should be removed. I can't think of another sport where in the national championship, an official can also compete. Can you imagine the NFL having officials that got to put on pads at halftime and play the second half?

The need to make the match as fair and equitable as possible makes the Nationals different than most other matches.

[sperman]

I really find it hard to believe that we have a bunch of officials running around who can't be impartial while running their competitors. If it is really an epidimic, how do we get through all of the Area and state matches without any rumors of impropriety.

I completely agree that the CRO on the stage should be the same for all shooters, but I don't think it would be an issue to rotate out the rest of the ROs, whether it be to let them take a break, or so they could shoot the match.

For those of you who think that we have too many RO's at the nationals, read through this thread. Most of the guys who worked the nationals talk about working 3 consecutive 12+ hour days, with no break, in the desert heat. It sounds to me like we need more ROs, not less.

[pjb45]

I would concur that the ROs at this year's nationals worked ungodly hours.

We were the first squad one morning, the ROs were already there, waiting for another squad finish another stage.

But that is a result of a poorly designed match IMO!

[remoandiris]

I really find it hard to believe that we have a bunch of officials running around who can't be impartial while running their competitors. If it is really an epidimic, how do we get through all of the Area and state matches without any rumors of impropriety.

+ a few million!

I completely agree that the CRO on the stage should be the same for all shooters, but I don't think it would be an issue to rotate out the rest of the ROs, whether it be to let them take a break, or so they could shoot the match.

Since CROs are all trained the same, is it really necessary to have the CRO there all day? IMO, another CRO could rotate in to let the assigned one take a break.

[sperman]

I don't think so. Reference all the discussions on foot faults and significant advantage.

[Koppi]

Hi,

I want to thank all those people involved in putting on the Area and National matches, THANK YOU! you gals and guys are doing the work 98% of us don't want to do or don't have the time to do it. And your spending way to much of your own money to do those mostly un-thanked jobs. Volunteering is one thing servitude is another and no compensation for your HARD work is unforgivable. If the 98% are not willing to work, than they should be willing to pay the way of those that are. I save all year to attend the Nationals it is a great match. If it where to cost another $100 I would not go out to dinner two more times during the year and pay it, no problem.

THANK YOU gals and guys again you do a great job! and I can't wait to shake your hands again and tell you that face to face! Because you make this sport FUN for me.

John Koppi

L-2680

[remoandiris]

I don't think so. Reference all the discussions on foot faults and significant advantage.

There you go again bringing up valid points for consideration.

[dirty whiteboy]

After reading through this thread(quickly).it would be hard for me to justify a trip to the Nationals. When there are plenty of quality Area, Sectional, and State matches nearby and run with great efficiency. Not to mention that Frostproof is also in reasonable driving distance. I could easily see the Fla Open as (my) Nationals. Hit two Area matches(6&8)and a handful of state/sectional matches through the year. What would be the appeal of buying a plane ticket, ship ammo, rent a car, pay for a hotel/food for 3-4 days, after seeing all that "seems" to be wrong with the "BEST" match of the year. I'm not trying to deter other shooters from going. But, can someone tell me what I would be missing?

[tulsashooter45]

Im new to this sport having only been shooting for three years. In that time I have worked two Handgun Nationals and one Multigun Nationals. I feel I have enough experience now to make the following statements.

Every stage I have ever worked at a Nationals match had just enough staff to run it. The "compensation " is the furthest thing from the definition of the word. Its a money losing proposition EVERY trip I have made.

I have good news though. Those that are complaining about how it is currently done are VERY welcome to volunteer their time and resources to USPSA next year to help offset the "over spending".

Very well said!!

[remoandiris]

But, can someone tell me what I would be missing?

If you're talking about Nats at St George, you'd miss a number of national and state parks with unbelieveably gorgeous scenery within a 300 mile radius. But I'm biased.

Also, whether you want to believe it or not, there is a mystique with Nats. There is to me, anyway.