What is a custom gun?

[Hello]

Like the title says: What is a custom gun? Is it a gun that is built to a customer’s specification or is it a really cool gun built the way a particular gun builder wants?

I have had two open guns built recently that were deemed custom by the builder, but yet he totally disregarded my requests even down to the color. When confronted I was given the blow off and told I am difficult and that I received a discount, so I should take what I get. These were not cheap guns I'm into them in the vicinity of 9k, for me a large amount of money.

No I don't believe custom means built to your exact specs. But what I do think it means is that the builder will discus what works for you, things like balance and size and work those custom features into those non-function critical areas. I also think he should give you the freedom to make changes to no critical areas, such as controls, safeties, slide racker, scope mount, sights, thumb rest, maybe even slide cuts, but most defiantly finish and color!

My intent is not to bash or badmouth this builder, I like this guy and I like shooting his guns! My hope is that he will read this and grow into a custom builder instead of a cookie cutter design, all be it a cool cookie.

Is this custom or am I just difficult?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Should at least discuss, before the gun is built, what you'd like, and communicate

with builder - if he doesn't want to build what you want, you should have the

option of having another builder bid on the job.

I wouldn't just tell him what I wanted, and then wait 6-12 months to see what

comes back.

[MILDOTS]

I started buying custom guns in the late 80's. They were true custom you chose what you wanted and they did it! A true custom gunsmith in my opinion will do what you request and it he thinks changes need to be made will contact you and give you options, but you make the final decision . STI sells you the gun they have take it or leave it which is not bad but is not custom.

Having said that I have 3 STI's and love them they shoot well. When I was buying custom that was the only thing you could do. There are so many options out there that we now take for

granted so I am not tempted to go custom now. I wanted a 9mm single stack and am happy with my Trojan.

But to answer your question No you are not being difficult.

[JaeOne3345]

That's a really lame experience you had to go through. I think you should state who this person is so everyone knows what they are getting into when dealing with that person. Your requests for changing non critical things shouldn't have been a problem at all. Unless he can provide some strong reasoning as to why you can't have a certain thumb safety for example, he should install that on the gun.

My gunsmith does whatever I ask as long as it doesn't do anything detrimental to the functioning or longevity of the gun. He will make recommendations based on his experience, and I typically follow his advice, but if there is something I am set on, he installs it. I am paying. It's that simple.

[GuildSF4]

When I working for Guy, custom was what the customer wanted, parts, finish, snake belly, checkering, cuts... We would suggest specific parts or changes, however it was the customers choice.

[Foxbat]

In reality none of these guns should be considered custom, as they are all just some variations of the existing models... semi-custom is perhaps the right term. There are some builders of truly custom guns out there, but there might be a handful in the world, and each of their guns is unique. I know one such guy, he lives in Germany.

[Zoomy]

Just my 2 cents but I think most smiths that build LTD & Open for our sport are semi custom. Very few will even discuss making one off designs in the area of custom slide cuts or slide serrations. They are just too busy and the time lost on one such gun he can build 3 from the standard choice of options.

Nothing wrong with that, I am more than happy with my LTD build. Many of these folks where the custom builders of the past and as demand for these specialized guns grew something had to give. Maybe some will open a true custom division in thier companies but be prepared to pay the price for the dozens of consultations and design revisions.

All that being said semi custom gets you the builders experience in hand fitting and blending that gives you a reliable smooth operating gun that not only looks cool but feels great to hold and shoot.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Zoomy

[gunracer38]

I will say one thing for Gunsmiths who make Open Guns and Limited Guns. They are the best people to speak with. Don't get me wrong do your history for gunsmiths. I have had terrible gunsmiths but now I have some of the best. It may cost more but what would you rather have. A gun at a match which works or a gun that jams at the match. I had a friend who wanted a high cap 45. Every time he went to a match it jammed.He finally gave up and does not compete anymore.The old saying you get what you pay for still true.

[calvinc78]

Seems with open and limited guns. With I. About 3 seconds of looking at one you can tell the builder by the slide cuts and groves... It's hard to make one offs and put out as much product is needed with the demand. If every gun had true custom looks and feel they would all have 2-3 year waits

[OperationHitFactor]

I had very similar experiences with two highly recommended gunsmiths. I now do my own work and will only recommend Infinity or STI (you have a lifetime warranty). You cannot bad mouth gunsmiths on forums and fan boys give false expectations.

One of the gunsmiths I went through sent me a gun with a bad barrel fit then told me I had to wait, because he was busy building new guns.

The other built me a fantastic functioning gun, but was in the wrong finish without slide lightening.

I bought a used gun which I still use as a paperweight because it can't be fixed.

I lost so many thousands of dollars I almost quit the sport entirely.

So in answer to your question. Custom? I don't know. I guess it's pain and misery for some and pleasant for others.

Now I shoot a Glock 35. YMMV

[1911Prof]

I guess I have been one of the lucky ones, but my experiences with Gary Natale (GANS) were awesome. I sent Gary some concept drawings of what I wanted in an open gun and he discussed some of the potential problems with my design and really worked with me to design and build a truly custom gun. In the end, the gun he built was almost exactly like my original design with some of his own artistic flair involved. But even in a custom gun there are a limited number of variations that can be done to the basic framework of a 2011 and have it maintain reliability, so most of the custom work is cosmetic. I also realize that with such tight tolerances, every smith is going to have a project that doesn't work out the way both parties are happy with.

Edited December 5, 2013 by 1911Prof

[StraightUp_OG]

Custom is ground up to customer specifications. An experts opinion is always welcome but it is my money so regardless of opinion it's my way.

For the amount of money these things cost I want it the way I want it. So much so that I am my builder now so I get it not only the way I want it but if it is screwed up I can only blame myself.

[Mat Price]

Without mentioning the builders name I have a good idea who you are talking about as this is a fairly common response when a customer has an issue. If you where to mention the name fans would come out in droves to support the builder which 90% of which have never bought a gun from them anyway

[cecil]

I have a saying .... it goes like this... "IF I PAY.. I SAY" .. after all.. you are paying him ... I would not ever order from that builder again !! maybe you should name him on here...... might save a lot of grief for someone... and if he starts hurting in his bank account he might learn to listen to his customers !!!!

[Biloxi23]

Is a gunsmith fit gun a custom gun? Like when you send the parts to a gunsmith and he fits and finishes the gun? I did this and elected to only have the slide tri-topped, sight cuts and serrations front and rear on the brand new slide, bull barrel, fire control parts, etc. The only "old" parts used were the frame and the grip. The turn around was excellent, the fit and finish were amazing and the gun is accurate and has never hiccupped. It looks like a stock bull barreled Eagle, but is way above that. Because I elected not to spend money on "one of a kind" machining does that mean it is not a custom gun. Gary at Gans built it just like I asked him to.

[Mat Price]

Is a gunsmith fit gun a custom gun? Like when you send the parts to a gunsmith and he fits and finishes the gun? I did this and elected to only have the slide tri-topped, sight cuts and serrations front and rear on the brand new slide, bull barrel, fire control parts, etc. The only "old" parts used were the frame and the grip. The turn around was excellent, the fit and finish were amazing and the gun is accurate and has never hiccupped. It looks like a stock bull barreled Eagle, but is way above that. Because I elected not to spend money on "one of a kind" machining does that mean it is not a custom gun. Gary at Gans built it just like I asked him to.

gerald I can not say enough good about garry. I am glad you sent that eagle to him. see you saturday man

[Sarge]

I hate the phrase "fan boy". I prefer "loyal customer". Matt Cheely built my gun and I certainly hope he is not one of the smiths mentioned here that is providing substandard customer service. He has been good to me overall. Does he build custom guns? By most definitions probably not. But what do I say when some plinker on the range walks up and asks me what brand of gun I am shooting? I always tell them it is a custom built gun. Much easier than taking 10 minutes to explain. As somebody said earlier, most of the top builder's guns are easily recognizable even though they are not truly custom.

I also think there are two types of gun buyers of "semi Custom?" guns. Shooters who were like me and had no real idea, or very limited knowledge of how to spec a gun out and those who know down to the last detail what brand of parts they want where. I did not want to buy a used gun that somebody probably sold because they found something better. I wanted a new gun. I told Matt I wanted an Open gun with all the best parts in it so I could use it and have a better than average expectation that it would be reliable and dependable. He provided that and much more. It has literally been just about as reliable as the old Glock 34 was.

I have talked to plenty of more experienced shooters who have spec'd out guns to Matt and he has done exactly what they wanted within reason. Slide cuts, etc serve a purpose and you can't just say you don't want them or you only want half or whatever. It affects the performance of the gun. But he seems more than willing to put whatever part on a gun to make a customer happy.

He has my gun now for a two year check up, new trigger and hard chroming. I told him I wanted an SV trigger and he just said, "that's fine". He is going to fit a new racker to it before sending it back to me.

I think if you are going to run a gun that is built for you then there has got to be a certain amount of give and take. It's important to have a good relationship with them.

I actually find it hard to believe that a gun builder would not put a finish on a gun as requested by a paying customer. That seems like a stretch and I would like to know the whole story on that.

[Mat Price]

here is my advice... get all the options and your build sheet in writing.

[Hello]

Should at least discuss, before the gun is built, what you'd like, and communicate

with builder - if he doesn't want to build what you want, you should have the

option of having another builder bid on the job.

I wouldn't just tell him what I wanted, and then wait 6-12 months to see what

comes back.

HP Jack,

Thanks for the comment. If you did discus it and felt as though you came to a mutual agreement and you were delivered something else… How would that make you feel and react?

My assumption would be you would respond similar to me and question it politely right up to the point when you are told you are just difficult then you would tell it like it is and be written off.

[Hello]

I started buying custom guns in the late 80's. They were true custom you chose what you wanted and they did it! A true custom gunsmith in my opinion will do what you request and it he thinks changes need to be made will contact you and give you options, but you make the final decision . STI sells you the gun they have take it or leave it which is not bad but is not custom.

Having said that I have 3 STI's and love them they shoot well. When I was buying custom that was the only thing you could do. There are so many options out there that we now take for

granted so I am not tempted to go custom now. I wanted a 9mm single stack and am happy with my Trojan.

But to answer your question No you are not being difficult.

Mildot,

I think you hit the nail on the head. STI builds a good gun, cookie cutter but a good gun, but more importantly, they do not represent themselves as “Custom”. With them you know what you are getting and if you decide tomorrow you want the same gun… click buy and voila, you get the same gun no misrepresentation there.

[Hello]

That's a really lame experience you had to go through. I think you should state who this person is so everyone knows what they are getting into when dealing with that person. Your requests for changing non critical things shouldn't have been a problem at all. Unless he can provide some strong reasoning as to why you can't have a certain thumb safety for example, he should install that on the gun.

My gunsmith does whatever I ask as long as it doesn't do anything detrimental to the functioning or longevity of the gun. He will make recommendations based on his experience, and I typically follow his advice, but if there is something I am set on, he installs it. I am paying. It's that simple.

Thanks JaeOne, I'll get over it eventually. I'm not going to mention in public who it is, he will know when he reads this. Your gunsmith sounds like a good one, does he refer to himself as “Custom”?

Mine needs to learn that what seems to be a minor difference to him may be a major one to his customer and they are not just being difficult when they expect to get something that you agreed on and it is not delivered. If you’re going to represent yourself as “Custom” then listen to your customer and deliver, it’s their money you’re spending. If you can’t do that then don’t call yourself custom or even “semi-custom” (Thanks Foxbat) for that matter.

[Hello]

here is my advice... get all the options and your build sheet in writing.

True dat!

[JaeOne3345]

That's a really lame experience you had to go through. I think you should state who this person is so everyone knows what they are getting into when dealing with that person. Your requests for changing non critical things shouldn't have been a problem at all. Unless he can provide some strong reasoning as to why you can't have a certain thumb safety for example, he should install that on the gun.

My gunsmith does whatever I ask as long as it doesn't do anything detrimental to the functioning or longevity of the gun. He will make recommendations based on his experience, and I typically follow his advice, but if there is something I am set on, he installs it. I am paying. It's that simple.

Thanks JaeOne, I'll get over it eventually. I'm not going to mention in public who it is, he will know when he reads this. Your gunsmith sounds like a good one, does he refer to himself as “Custom”?

Mine needs to learn that what seems to be a minor difference to him may be a major one to his customer and they are not just being difficult when they expect to get something that you agreed on and it is not delivered. If you’re going to represent yourself as “Custom” then listen to your customer and deliver, it’s their money you’re spending. If you can’t do that then don’t call yourself custom or even “semi-custom” (Thanks Foxbat) for that matter.

Yes. You can see an example of my smith's work here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=186135&p=2055691

Everything, down to the cuts, was done at my request. "Where do you want this? OK." Seriously.

I think you really should air him out. You are much more polite and reserved than I am. That is a lot of money.

Edited December 6, 2013 by JaeOne3345

[Hello]

here is my advice... get all the options and your build sheet in writing.

True dat!

I just went to Matt Cheely's web site, I don't know him, never shot one of his guns, but man that website is da bomb! Drop down menus for everything... I bet this guy delivers what you request and a quick screen print would confirm your agreement. Nice job! Someone could probably learn something from this.

[Parallax3D]

Like the title says: What is a custom gun? Is it a gun that is built to a customer’s specification or is it a really cool gun built the way a particular gun builder wants?

I have had two open guns built recently that were deemed custom by the builder, but yet he totally disregarded my requests even down to the color. When confronted I was given the blow off and told I am difficult and that I received a discount, so I should take what I get. These were not cheap guns I'm into them in the vicinity of 9k, for me a large amount of money.

The customer is always right. The builder can SUGGEST things, but If I want a purple gun with pink poka-dots, then that's what I'd better get. If the builder didn't want to do it, then he should have refused to take the job.

I would have refused to pay for them.