Open Gun Question

[RaymondMillbrae]

Hey folks,

I have a question for yall.

My buddy is looking into getting into the open gun division. And he was curious to know what the pro's and con's were for an open gun in .38 super, verses a .40 cal.

We know the brass is a huge factor, as the .38 super can be reloaded less often, and are expensive to find.

We know that the .38 super needs to be loaded hot in order for the compensator to work. (Which keeps the flip down).

We know the 38 super has a larger round capacity. (Due to it's smaller size).

We also know that if you look at the folks at national/world competitions, that they are using .38 super. (They must know something, right)?

But what else?

Are there any folks using .40 cals in the open division that are meat-eaters?

Can you purchase a nice, tricked-out .40 cal open gun and get similar benefits as a .38 super?

My buddy asked me to throw this out at yall for a response.

Thanks.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited January 16, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[D.Hayden]

For Open it's 38 Super, or 9MM.. look around at the guns at Richmond.. see what works for you..

40 doesn't hold enough..

[WDB]

Asked and answered MANY times:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...77956&hl=40

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...95796&hl=40

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ic=17086&hl

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...272&hl=open

These are just a few. Have fun.

[WDB]

Oooops, double tap

Edited January 16, 2010 by WDB

[Jman]

Hey folks,

I have a question for yall.

My buddy is looking into getting into the open gun division. And he was curious to know what the pro's and con's were for an open gun in .38 super, verses a .40 cal.

We know the brass is a huge factor, as the .38 super can be reloaded less often, and are expensive to find.

We know that the .38 super needs to be loaded hot in order for the compensator to work. (Which keeps the flip down).

We know the 38 super has a larger round capacity. (Due to it's smaller size).

We also know that if you look at the folks at national/world competitions, that they are using .38 super. (They must know something, right)?

But what else? Not much

Are there any folks using .40 cals in the open division that are meat-eaters? Just a few, here and there, maybe 1-2% overall.

Can you purchase a nice, tricked-out .40 cal open gun and get similar benefits as a .38 super? Close, sort of. But at that price point, why settle for close?

My buddy asked me to throw this out at yall for a response. Have him/her keep an eye out for nice used Open gun deals here and on the USPSA classifieds.

Thanks.

In Christ: Raymond

[G-ManBart]

Hey folks,

I have a question for yall.

My buddy is looking into getting into the open gun division. And he was curious to know what the pro's and con's were for an open gun in .38 super, verses a .40 cal.

We know the brass is a huge factor, as the .38 super can be reloaded less often, and are expensive to find.

We know that the .38 super needs to be loaded hot in order for the compensator to work. (Which keeps the flip down).

We know the 38 super has a larger round capacity. (Due to it's smaller size).

We also know that if you look at the folks at national/world competitions, that they are using .38 super. (They must know something, right)?

But what else?

Are there any folks using .40 cals in the open division that are meat-eaters?

Can you purchase a nice, tricked-out .40 cal open gun and get similar benefits as a .38 super?

My buddy asked me to throw this out at yall for a response.

Thanks.

In Christ: Raymond

There are a few people running .40 and doing well with it in Open, but most of them are pretty exceptionally good shooters to start with. So, it can be done. I don't think it's the easiest, or best way to go, but it's not an absolutely terrible idea.

Having said that, I think your list there needs some tweaking. I think more folks are running .38 Supercomp than standard .38 Super these days. Certainly, some folks are using Super, but less and less all the time. With the semi-rim on the Super you get less magazine capacity than Supercomp, and it's possible to have feeding problems with the semi-rims hooking on the round above/below it (not so common now).

Either Super or Supercomp brass lasts a long time. Maybe not as long as .40, but it would be close from what I've seen. You can run them until the primer pockets loosen up (easily 10+ uses) and the headstamps are hard to read. If your buddy can get .40 brass free, it makes a difference, but if he's going to have to buy it, the difference narrows somewhat. If brass cost and availability is a significant concern 9 Major might be the way for him to go.

.40 will probably cost a touch more to load because the bullets are normally more expensive. Super/Supercomp is probably more capable of running the compensator better because you can run lighter bullets with larger charges of slow powder, but it'll take a pretty good shooter to be able to take advantage of that difference.

Sure, you can get an Open gun made in .40 without much trouble. There's actually a long thread on .40 Open you may want to look up. I'll see if I can find it and add a link. R,

[ChuckS]

Raymond,

I think this is the . 40 open thread that Bart is referring to: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=902806

Later,

Chuck

PS: Quit SHOUTING! please!

[G-ManBart]

Raymond,

I think this is the . 40 open thread that Bart is referring to: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=902806

Later,

Chuck

That's the one....thx

[calishootr]

yrs ago TGO was running a 9x25, which ran the comp great, but two thing got him off of doing it, one he said he developed tendenitus in his elbow from the increased recoil and the mags held a reduced capacity...

if there was a single thing as to why open shooters run 38 super(an now 9mm major) is capacity, followed closely by the fact the round makes just about every comp outthere run really well, normal/warm .40 loads dont work as well...

hate to say we have pidgeonholed ourselves into a one track thinking as for what works in open class, but look around next time at richmond's match, who is running what??? what are say the top 10 shooters in the match running??? dig out some past Front Sights and read their survey's of gear at the nationals....what are people using??? why??? because it seems to work....

hey...back in the day we all thought the guy at our lil local indoor club was nuts for strappin on a large prehistoric Aimpoint to one of those grip panel/mounts on his single stack .45(yeah ive been at this that long) and we all laughed....till he started kickin our collective butts.....then nationally Doug Kohnig(sp) went to and WON the world shoot w/ a dot he strapped on 2 weeks prior....

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks.

One of the "sucky" things about being the middle man for my buddy, is that I have to read through all this stuff and give him a cursory overview from my perspective/interpretation.

He also asked me to ask yall..."As a beginning shooter in the open division, what would yall recommend that he start with"?

He has the money for a nice toy, but he wanted to know if he should play in the LIMITED DIVISION for a while until he is prepared to move up to the big boys. Or should he just go ahead and get his new toy, and adapt to it?

I'm of the camps that he should just purchase it, and go for it. But he wanted opinions and reasoned thoughts from others who have already tread this path and become Open Division shooters.

By the way, we are both shooting Limited-10, and he is very decent with his shooting.

Thanks.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited January 16, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[RH45]

If he wants to shoot open, I say he should go for it!

Tell him that if he goes to open, not to get discouraged with the "finding the dot" thing. It takes practice!

[boz1911]

If he wants to shoot open, I say he should go for it!

Tell him that if he goes to open, not to get discouraged with the "finding the dot" thing. It takes practice!

Agreed, shooting open is a totally different style of shooting, for me anyway. There's nothing worse than not finding or losing the dot during a COF.

[PaulW]

And there are plenty of "Big Boys" in limited as well as other classes, not just in open class.

[lcs]

You can find a well cared for used 38SC at a very decent price, Hardly ever see 40 opens for sale. 38SC has more advantages when you get to the bottom line.

[Jman]

And there are plenty of "Big Boys" in limited as well as other classes, not just in open class.

Correct. We don't step up to or down to divisions, their just preferences.

Each have beginner, intermediate and advanced participants. Most of us shoot several divisions.

Jim

[XRe]

The guys who shoot Open .40 will tell you that there's no disadvantage to a .38/9 Open gun. Having shot several .40 Open guns, I can tell you that, to me, all of them shot harder and with more flip than the majority of .38/9 guns I've shot in recent years (which is a bunch of 'em). Yes, you can shoot one quite well, no doubt. Eventually, though, that capacity difference, and difference in recoil signature will have a derogatory effect for most shooters. I liken it to shooting at old major with a .38/9 gun.

Bullets are a little more expensive for .40 - the lightest you can go is a 135. This also tends to limit the amount of gas volume you can generate (without really driving your PF up). This is exactly why they tend to hit harder in the hand, and to flip a bit more - less efficient at the comp.

There's a good reason why all of the top shooters are shooting a .38/9 (and why the vast majority of them are shooting a .38 Super derived round)....

[WDB]

He has the money for a nice toy, but he wanted to know if he should play in the LIMITED DIVISION for a while until he is prepared to move up to the big boys. Or should he just go ahead and get his new toy, and adapt to it?

In Christ: Raymond

If he has the money for a nice toy he should probably get a 9 or 38 variant from the get go. Reasons discussed in previous posted threads.

[CocoBolo]

I play in several divisions, not a carnevor in any. But I would like to mention that 38 Super Comp Brass isn't a big issue for me.

I bought 2,000 when I started, of those 1500 are still in the package, and I have probably 5000 that I am reloading. Ok where did they come from. I went to the RO class, last year I RO'ed at 4 major matches. At each match I made deals with RO's to trade 40, 45, 9, or 38 +P, for their Super Comps. I also shot 7 lost brass matches last year. And the best thing is you are giving back to the sport, and learning more about it.

I paint all my loaded rounds with Dykem (lesbian markup ink) makes them easy to find when I practice or at a local match. I relaod them till they split, and you find that in the drop check. I would say that easily 10 times each.

Also at local club matches when the dust has settled and eveyone is sitting around bragging about how good they did, I go clean every bay with my nut picker (brass roller), At some ranges I can't do that but when I can I do.

I started with a 40 open gun. To get a feel for what that is like, shoot a single stack in Limited. I really like the feel of that gun it was super soft just not competitive.

[kitestir]

With the fact that you can get 9mm brass for next to nothing and everyone seems to have good luck getting them to run comps, that would be my choice .....

[XRe]

He has the money for a nice toy, but he wanted to know if he should play in the LIMITED DIVISION for a while until he is prepared to move up to the big boys. Or should he just go ahead and get his new toy, and adapt to it?

Missed this question before, Ray.

There's a whole lot to be said for jumping into Open. The Open gun teaches you things quickly that take a longer time to learn on iron sights (though you certainly can learn them on iron sights). Going to anything higher capacity will allow your buddy to start focusing on things other than having to reload every time he moves - that will make huges leaps in his game, either way. Open allows you to focus even more on movement, shoot on the move, shooting a moving sight picture, grip neutrality, consistent gun presentation. Limited, on the other hand, (and relative to Open) teaches you a lot more about patience with the sight picture - the primary difference being that the sighting system in Open is less demanding, thus freeing up some cycles to work on other skills more easily. Again - all that can be done in Limited, but it usually takes folks more time.

I think there's a lot to be said for shooting both - but it's quite usual to find folks who end up preferring one over the other most of the time. Your friend will have to give it a good go to find out for himself

[G-ManBart]

With the fact that you can get 9mm brass for next to nothing and everyone seems to have good luck getting them to run comps, that would be my choice .....

That may have been true a while back, but not so much now. Heck, it's sometimes hard to even find once-fired 9 to buy now. Even places like Brassman have been out frequently. I think he's the least expensive, and you're looking at $35/K when he has it.

Since so many police organizations have switched to .40, the well for cheap/free 9mm is drying up R,

[G-ManBart]

He also asked me to ask yall..."As a beginning shooter in the open division, what would yall recommend that he start with"?

He has the money for a nice toy, but he wanted to know if he should play in the LIMITED DIVISION for a while until he is prepared to move up to the big boys. Or should he just go ahead and get his new toy, and adapt to it?

I'm of the camps that he should just purchase it, and go for it. But he wanted opinions and reasoned thoughts from others who have already tread this path and become Open Division shooters.

This is obviously only my opinion, but it is based on seeing a lot of Open shooters either struggle, or not, based on their equipment. If I was in charge of picking the equipment for a new shooter who said "tell me what to buy, and I'll do it", I'd tell them to get the following basic setup:

Start with a 5" gun (STI/SVI), standard dust cover, in .38 Supercomp, no hybrid ports or popple holes (popple holes wouldn't be a deal breaker on a good used gun), standard comp style (nothing overly short or overly huge), with any decent scope mount and a C-more with an 8moa dot. If the gun is totally reliable and has a reasonable trigger on it nothing else makes a huge difference. I'd say if they can get a gun with a slide racker, it's helpful, but you can get by without one. That's a sound, basic starting point they can tweak a little to suit them as time goes by (like trying a different dot size).

Why that combination? It's going to be the easiest for a new shooter to adapt to, it'll be easier to get to run, and it's got room for some changes. I'd look for a good used gun, but wouldn't turn them away from buying something like a Trubor with a Brazos High Performance package.

I'd suggest 38 SC because it's easier to get the gun to run with, it offers the newbie more flexibility in powder selection, and it makes mag selection a bit less critical. If, for some reason, your friend got stuck on 9 Major I'd make one change to the above suggestion: absolutely get a gun with one of the canted mounts, i.e. Barry, Quinn or Cheely. It will make getting the gun running 100% far less painful. The last thing you want is to have the new Open shooter trying to run a gun that's puking all the time. When that happens (and I've seen it), they usually get frustrated because they're trying to learn to watch the targets, track the dot, manage their one reload per stage (normally) and move. As soon as the gun pukes it throws off the whole stage and they wind up not knowing where to reload, how to get back to the plan etc. With something like an L-10 gun, you can just go back to reloading almost every time you move and you're pretty much back on track.

People often comment that when they're new to Open it's almost information overload. Things are happening faster, they're seeing more, and the gun itself is more distracting....blast, noise etc. With all that going on, you don't want to add in an finicky gun. The cool thing is that once you get comfortable with all of that, and you go back to something like L-10, it seems more relaxed.

Tell your buddy that Limited is no picnic when it comes to competition. In some clubs there are more Limited shooters than anything else, and some of them are VERY good....it's a deep pool to swim in and a really good shooter with a Limited rig can give all but the best Open shooters all they can handle, and then some. R,

Edited January 16, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Flyin40]

If your buddy wants to shoot Open and has the $$$ then just watch the classifieds. The only reason I shoot a 40 Open gun is that I had a limited gun and converted it. For about $1200 in parts, gunsmithing, slide lightening, cmore and mount I had an Open gun. I'm still shooting it and have found zero reason to change.

Capacity-You have an advantage with the 38/9 guns. 40 can go 27+1 so the disadvantage is not a big as it used to be. But understand capacity isn't the answer though many people want to believe it is. Getting rid of mikes, no shoots, fte and improving on shooting on the move, entering/exiting positons, stage plans etc etc is where its all at. Only after you get rid of the mistakes or at least keep them to a minimum and improve your overall skills then capacity "may" come into play.

Bullet selection- You can get 124's but they are expensive. I use 135's and pay around $105 per 1k. The selection of 40 bullets are limited. Thats probably the biggest disadvantage I have found.

Brass-9mm and 40 cost is pretty much the same. 38 is going to cost you more.

Recoil-I don't put much into it. I have learned that actual recoil meaning felt or even perceived recoil means very little. I shoot 99.9% of practice with 22LR in an Open gun setup. I can switch back and forth with zero issues. I have put it too the test and looked at HF and get the same results everytime. To me it is all about the dot which also deals with recoil but as long as it tracks straight up and down how the gun recoils in the hand means very little to me. It may be that since I practice with a 22 most of the time that I learned how to "tune out" the recoil of the gun allowing me to switch back and forth between platforms with zero issues. I have shot 9mm, 38s, 38sc and they feel different from one another. One 38 feels different from another 38. Most 40 Open guns are converted limited guns and run heavy compared to a true Open gun. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer for recoil but rather its an individual thing. It will change from one person to the next.

$$$$$- This is what is comes down too. If your buddy has the money for a whole setup just check the classified on Uspsa.org or here on the Enos forums and go with a 38 or 9mm. The main reason alot of guys go with 40 is they convert it from a limited gun which can save a ton of money. I'm still shooting a 40open gun because there is no advantage for me to switch at this point. I have been to Nationals, ton of Area matches and State matches and I can tell you I have never lost because of capacity. Dumba$$ mistakes yes but capacity no.......

Bottom line is that its the shooter and not the gun.

and as far as the "Big Boys" being in Open....not sure about that one. Limited field is deeper and alot of Limited guys also shoot Open.

Flyin

[GrumpyOne]

Another point on using a 40 S&W open. You can buy ammo from Walmart in a pinch and make power factor. Try doing that with a 9mm or 38 super! Either of those, you are gonna have to load, or buy from Atlanta Arms.

[jkatz44]

If your buddy wants to shoot Open and has the $$$ then just watch the classifieds. The only reason I shoot a 40 Open gun is that I had a limited gun and converted it. For about $1200 in parts, gunsmithing, slide lightening, cmore and mount I had an Open gun. I'm still shooting it and have found zero reason to change.

Capacity-You have an advantage with the 38/9 guns. 40 can go 27+1 so the disadvantage is not a big as it used to be. But understand capacity isn't the answer though many people want to believe it is. Getting rid of mikes, no shoots, fte and improving on shooting on the move, entering/exiting positons, stage plans etc etc is where its all at. Only after you get rid of the mistakes or at least keep them to a minimum and improve your overall skills then capacity "may" come into play.

Bullet selection- You can get 124's but they are expensive. I use 135's and pay around $105 per 1k. The selection of 40 bullets are limited. Thats probably the biggest disadvantage I have found.

Brass-9mm and 40 cost is pretty much the same. 38 is going to cost you more.

Recoil-I don't put much into it. I have learned that actual recoil meaning felt or even perceived recoil means very little. I shoot 99.9% of practice with 22LR in an Open gun setup. I can switch back and forth with zero issues. I have put it too the test and looked at HF and get the same results everytime. To me it is all about the dot which also deals with recoil but as long as it tracks straight up and down how the gun recoils in the hand means very little to me. It may be that since I practice with a 22 most of the time that I learned how to "tune out" the recoil of the gun allowing me to switch back and forth between platforms with zero issues. I have shot 9mm, 38s, 38sc and they feel different from one another. One 38 feels different from another 38. Most 40 Open guns are converted limited guns and run heavy compared to a true Open gun. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer for recoil but rather its an individual thing. It will change from one person to the next.

$$$$$- This is what is comes down too. If your buddy has the money for a whole setup just check the classified on Uspsa.org or here on the Enos forums and go with a 38 or 9mm. The main reason alot of guys go with 40 is they convert it from a limited gun which can save a ton of money. I'm still shooting a 40open gun because there is no advantage for me to switch at this point. I have been to Nationals, ton of Area matches and State matches and I can tell you I have never lost because of capacity. Dumba$$ mistakes yes but capacity no.......

Bottom line is that its the shooter and not the gun.

and as far as the "Big Boys" being in Open....not sure about that one. Limited field is deeper and alot of Limited guys also shoot Open.

Flyin

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