is this a legal uspsa shooting position

[D.Hayden]

He really doesn't mention it's for strong or weak hand shooting.. maybe it's freestyle.. then it's fine..

[juan]

He really doesn't mention it's for strong or weak hand shooting.. maybe it's freestyle.. then it's fine..

it is for strong and week hand shooting

[juan]

He really doesn't mention it's for strong or weak hand shooting.. maybe it's freestyle.. then it's fine..

these are really great answers but i still dont know if it is legal or not,, any ideas

[BSeevers]

He really doesn't mention it's for strong or weak hand shooting.. maybe it's freestyle.. then it's fine..

these are really great answers but i still dont know if it is legal or not,, any ideas

Send an email with pic to John Amidon. His Address is on USPSA.org

Troy McManus is a good one to ask too.

Edited January 4, 2010 by BSeevers

[LPatterson]

Based upon the picture and the wording of 10.2.8.2 which mentions the handgun, wrist or shooting arm only, I do not see where any penalties are applicable. The first part of 10.8.2 applies to when not to issue a penalty and is the only mention of (shoulder), the last sentence covers what penalty to issue and for what through the use of subparagraphs 10.2.8.1-10.2.8.3.

[Steve J]

For those who think it might be legal, hold your handgun in your outstretched arm and simply place your hand on top of your shoulder. For me, that provides an obvious amount of support. I can hold my handgun with my arm outstretched a lot longer simply by placing my hand on top of my shoulder with a little pressure.

I call foul. Your shoulder is part of your arm. If the lawyers deem that 10.2.8.2 doesn't apply, then the rule needs to be rewritten.

[Nik Habicht]

I call foul. Your shoulder is part of your arm. If the lawyers deem that 10.2.8.2 doesn't apply, then the rule needs to be rewritten.

Not necessarily --- there are parts of the shoulder that are not the head of the humerus --- where the arm terminates.....

[mhs]

I call foul. Your shoulder is part of your arm. If the lawyers deem that 10.2.8.2 doesn't apply, then the rule needs to be rewritten.

This seems more like a case of the lawyers trying to call a shoulder an arm, so they can penalize a legal technique.

[JeffWard]

I call foul. Your shoulder is part of your arm. If the lawyers deem that 10.2.8.2 doesn't apply, then the rule needs to be rewritten.

Not necessarily --- there are parts of the shoulder that are not the head of the humerus --- where the arm terminates.....

All three Deltoid muscles attach at the Deltoid Tuberosity of the Humerus, and work to stabilize the head of the humerus, along with the rotator cuff muscles: Supraspinatus, Infraspinatus, Teres Minor, and Subscapularis. Putting in medial/downward pressure on the medial deltoid and supraspinatus, would tighten the tendon attaching to the head of the humerus, and provide support to the joint. Minimal, but support.

If the hand was just RESTING on the shoulder, and the head on the hand... maybe legal. But by strict reading of the rule, it could be construed illegal.

Bad Chad???

Jeff

[little_kahuna]

My $0.02:

Why do it?

As far as the legality goes, if you have to ask if it's allowed, then maybe you shouldn't be trying it anyway.

I don't see anyone winning who's doing that, and it looks like it might even be slow to get into/out of positions (as I believe was mentioned earlier).

I know that I (and quite a few other shooters) control strong/weak hand recoil by using your arm as a shock or spring, eliminating preliminary recoil into your bending wrist/elbow/shoulder, and letting the remainder of that recoil get absorbed by the weight of your torso (letting it dissipate into your stance).

From the image, it looks like you'd be using your shoulder/neck to take that recoil.

+1 JeffWard, lots of big science-words makes it legit.

[mhs]

I call foul. Your shoulder is part of your arm. If the lawyers deem that 10.2.8.2 doesn't apply, then the rule needs to be rewritten.

Not necessarily --- there are parts of the shoulder that are not the head of the humerus --- where the arm terminates.....

All three Deltoid muscles attach at the Deltoid Tuberosity of the Humerus, and work to stabilize the head of the humerus, along with the rotator cuff muscles: Supraspinatus, Infraspinatus, Teres Minor, and Subscapularis. Putting in medial/downward pressure on the medial deltoid and supraspinatus, would tighten the tendon attaching to the head of the humerus, and provide support to the joint. Minimal, but support.

If the hand was just RESTING on the shoulder, and the head on the hand... maybe legal. But by strict reading of the rule, it could be construed illegal.

Bad Chad???

Jeff

So by your "strict" reading, it would also be illegal to have your non-shooting hand on your pec, which is attached to your humerus. Or abs, which stabilize your sternum, which is the origin of your pec, which is attached to your humerus. Or any other part of your body.

Or you could read the rule as it is written, and keep your non-shooting hand off your gun, hand, wrist, and shooting arm.

[Flexmoney]

! Everybody sing !

The knee bone's connected to the ______

People tend to not welcome anything that is different.

What is we left out the off-hand? Just hunch the shoulder and the head all the way together (which isn't illegal, according to the rules). I think that would seem to address some of the "stability" issues that people are mentioning. So, it's not an issue of "stability". That is legal. It's purely (according to the rules) an issue of the off-hand on the [strong] arm.

Add in the off-hand in the location as shown...then it becomes a question of stretching th meaning of "support" and pushing the meaning of "arm". To what end?

The rule doesn't say shoulder....nor, neck or collar bone. It says arm.

He isn't even hardly touching his deltoid group (which everybody, I am sure, can generally agree is the basis of the "shoulder" and not the arm).

Legal.

Three things though:

1. Clearly you are going to get differing opinions. Just that fact will be a distraction from the shooting.

2. I've played with this a little since seeing it last night. I have given it some thought...even dug around on the internet looking for some info on the technique (I'd be interested in a source, if you have one). I just can't see an advantage. I don't even think an old Marine would use this technique.

3. Keep your grades up. Grow some delts. And, quit using your Dad's account...sign in with your own.

[Navysteve]

i am a junior shooting uspsa and i have a problem, is this legal. some of the ROs say yes and some say no. check out the nonshooting hand location, it is not touching my arm but is rested on my shoulder, i cant find it in the rulebook, does anyone know?

It looks to me that you are putting your left hand on your trapezius muscle. Its functions are to move the scapulae and support the arm. By putting your hand on that muscle you are adding weight to your arm.

So are you "supporting" (the act of bearing the weight of or strengthening) your arm, I don't thing so.

I would allow it, and after trying it myself its quite comfortable.

But I'm just a gamer, and the IPSC god's yell at me a LOT.

[konkapot]

I worked with a very old school PPC shooter who shot like that. Didn't talk to him about it as to why, how come, etc.

FY42385

[GentlemanJim]

The legality is questionable

I would say dont do it that way for that reason alone.

Jim

[juan]

I had a hard time shooting week hand . the local GM showed me this.

[badchad]

Bad Chad???

Since you’re asking me, per 10.2.8.2, I would call it illegal. But you’re asking me as a physical therapist not as the guy who wrote the rules.

10.2.8.2 "Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting

arm while firing shots"

The word “arm” is a little ambiguous as I don’t know if he is using a common definition of arm (which sometimes include the shoulder) or medical (which generally does not):

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=8738

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arm

He’s most certainly touching the shoulder by most any definition…

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9056

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shoulder

…which in some definitions is part of the arm, at least as cited above.

What do they mean by “support? In my mind this is where things are clearer. He may or may not be touching the “arm” but he looks to be depressing the scapula which in my mind does, or could, help stabilize/support the arm arguably making shots easier. IIRC approximately 30% of “arm” motion comes from the scapula and this is directly being supported by the weak hand.

I could see where some might think having your weak hand touch your chest would involve the same issue, and maybe regarding the rules maybe it does, but regarding anatomy and actually supporting/stabilizing your arm putting your hand on your pectoral or sternum would not in any meaningful way help support the shooting “arm.”

Anyone can self test this themselves to see. Put your hand firmly on top of your shoulder as in the picture and your “arm” motion will be significantly lessened. Put the same pressure on your sternum or pectoral and I don’t think it will have any meaningful effect.

So unless Amidon says otherwise I’d issue procedurals for it.

[mhs]

Since you’re asking me, per 10.2.8.2, I would call it illegal. But you’re asking me as a physical therapist not as the guy who wrote the rules.

10.2.8.2 "Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting

arm while firing shots"

The word “arm” is a little ambiguous as I don’t know if he is using a common definition of arm (which sometimes include the shoulder) or medical (which generally does not):

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=8738

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arm

From your least restrictive source, "arm" is: 1. the upper limb of the human body, esp. the part extending from the shoulder to the wrist.

If we assume "from" in the definition to be inclusive, shoulder and wrist are part of the arm.

If we assume "from" to be noninclusive, shoulder and wrist are not part of the arm.

The rule includes both wrist and arm, which would be redundant if arm already included wrist.

For your interpretation to work, we would either need to consider "arm" to include shoulder but not wrist, or consider the rule to be very poorly written.

For my interpretation to work, we can consider the rule correctly written and for "arm" to mean the medical and most commonly used definition.

I would not feel justified in giving someone a proceedural if I needed to use uncommon definitions of words in the rulebook, and to consider the rulebook to be poorly written, in order to penalize what they did.

There are plenty of valid reasons to give proceedurals. Why are so many posters here looking for rationalizations to penalize actions that are safe, and are not clearly violations?

[Nik Habicht]

Since you’re asking me, per 10.2.8.2, I would call it illegal. But you’re asking me as a physical therapist not as the guy who wrote the rules.

10.2.8.2 "Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots"

There are plenty of valid reasons to give proceedurals. Why are so many posters here looking for rationalizations to penalize actions that are safe, and are not clearly violations?

Why assume that posters here are looking for rationalizations to penalize actions? I'm pretty sure I'm not. I'm pretty sure (my last class was CRO, wrapped up in early '07) that I know what the Board intended/how NROI interprets that rule......

I see it akin to calling a foot fault --- the hand may be on the chest, no fault. The hand may be off the chest, sliding up over the arm, millimeters away, again no fault. Or the hand may touch in a place that contravenes a rule, in which case I'm required to call a penalty to uphold competitive equity.....

Just as with a foot fault, I need to be certain the violation occurred. I'm permitted to consult with other stage staff in making that determination. If I'm certain, I call it; if I'm not, I can't.

Safety's probably not the issue here --- competitive equity might be.....

[Steve J]

The other question is why do you feel shooting like that gives you an advantage?

i think it gives me an advantage to rest and steady my head

I had a hard time shooting week hand . the local GM showed me this.

If you're having a hard time shooting weak hand only, then it's not to steady your head. It's to steady your arm which is illegal.

You're young. Train harder. Do more weak hand only and strong hand only shooting. There are no short cuts to developing necessary skills.

[badchad]

From your least restrictive source, "arm" is: 1. the upper limb of the human body, esp. the part extending from the shoulder to the wrist.

If we assume "from" in the definition to be inclusive, shoulder and wrist are part of the arm.

If we assume "from" to be noninclusive, shoulder and wrist are not part of the arm.

The rule includes both wrist and arm, which would be redundant if arm already included wrist.

For your interpretation to work, we would either need to consider "arm" to include shoulder but not wrist, or consider the rule to be very poorly written.

For my interpretation to work, we can consider the rule correctly written and for "arm" to mean the medical and most commonly used definition.

The medical and common usage are still different. The medical definition pretty much just includes the humerus and surrounding tissues and using that definition would leave you free and clear to grab your strong forearm (if not for the use of the word "support") while touching neither the wrist nor arm. I would say the rule was poorly written but now that I read a couple points above it…

“10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor

will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm

from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload

or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one

procedural penalty per shot fired while:”

…it seems they are being fairly inclusive with arm/hand/shoulder to mean the same thing with regards to one hand shooting. So that makes me surer that the procedural penalties per shot fired is the correct call.

However the point I was trying to make clear in my initial post, is that regardless of what you define as “arm” in this instance, that “arm” is still being supported by the other hand. The rule does not say you can’t “touch” the other arm, it says you can’t “support” it. I can tie a string to a cat and support it with my weak hand without touching it and I don’t think anyone would argue about the definition of support in this case without going to ridiculous extremes.

[AlamoShooter]

I like the way Steve J put it the best, I did not like the way my earlyer post sounded. I did not want to sound crule

the thing with one hand shooting is to use the larger Back muscles to create a foundation for the shoulder and arm

[ChuckS]

. And, quit using your Dad's account...sign in with your own.

I though he looked pretty good for a 43 year old

[BSeevers]

Don't assume my intentions either but if you want to know I am a fair, safe, knowledgable, and fun RO. I call them as I see them. This has nothing to do with an anatomy lesson of where my shoulder connects to my arm. Its SUPPORT and that's what that rule is about.

This ain't the first time I have seen that technique and it and the other variations are why that rule is in the book.

Edited January 5, 2010 by BSeevers

[mactiger]

After examining that picture pretty closely, and trying it myself, (which is what I'd do if I was the RM and this came up), I'd have to say that this position is supporting your arm, and therefore is illegal per the rules. (I made a pretty thorough read of them this time. ) If your off hand was on your chest, as many do, then it would most likely be OK, providing you weren't touching your other arm or shoulder.

“10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor

will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm

from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload

or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one

procedural penalty per shot fired while:”

(Thanks, badchad, for the rule quotes.)

I also have to agree with the majority of the posters here: if you were having trouble shooting with your weak hand, and this dramatically improved your shooting, then you are indeed supporting your shooting arm, and liable for procedural penalties.

Troy