G-ManBart Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I was talking with a fellow shooter and we sort of got on the topic of how lucky (not really luck, but you know what I mean) USPSA has been as far as having nearly no significant injuries (the bullet-related kind) happen at matches. Then we shifted gears and started talking about liability. I haven't seen anyone discuss this previously, but if it has, please point me in the right direction. If you decide to be a match director, range master, range official etc, do you think there's a liability issue that goes along with it? What if someone gets shot, or hit with a large enough piece of splatter to cause significant injury, or something similar like an injury from a really unsafe prop? Could that person sue the match director or other range staff for negligence? It would seem to me that the match director would ultimately be responsible for what happens and if someone can later reasonably claim that an unsafe condition existed, the MD should have fixed it....heck, even if they unreasonably claim an unsafe condition existed that doesn't mean it won't put you in the hurt locker for legal fees right? I know many clubs have people sign liability waivers, but probably not enough do so. Has anybody explored any sort of liability coverage along these lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 On a related note I'm going to be ordering a good gun shot medical kit to keep stashed in my truck. I have one in my work car and recently realized that I spend a lot more time around guns, and on ranges, on personal time. I'd feel really stupid if someone got hurt and I didn't have the right stuff to help out even though I've been trained to do so. Ranges/clubs really should have a first-class med kit with the sort of specialty stuff you find in good gun shot kits (think chest seals etc). R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 That's why you sign a waiver for every match... not that it would stand up in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) Funny, because I work in high risk commercial insurance and I have never seen a range and/or match insured. It wouldn't be a problem to write coverage either for a range or an event but I have no idea if anyone has or what the premium for something like that would be. Liability waivers in most states have been deemed to be against public policy and as such unenforceable, at least as far as recreational activities are concerned. Waivers for instructional situations are still holding up fairly well. edited 'cause Jim types faster than I do about waivers. :-) Edited November 30, 2009 by Neomet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wideload Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 At a minimum, I think the hosting club should have some form of liability coverage. Since many of the USPSA clubs operate as tennants of a host range, it would be beneficial for the club officers to investigate/verify coverage, and acquire some if there is a gap. This will set up one more layer of protection for the club officers and match officials who keep this sport alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 all of the ranges that I belong to insist that all of the members of the range also be in the NRA. I ASSume that is because they are somehow getting insurance via the NRA. I have signed waivers before, at matches, and yes, the nagging thought in the back of my mind was, "Is this really going to hold up in court?" IMO, of a more critical concern is not whether you have QuickClot in your range bag, but whether do you know how to get to the nearest hospital??? versus... Do the paramedics/ambulance crews know how to get to your range? Can you get a cell phone signal out? Maybe having a mapquest or google maps printout of the range to the nearest ER wouldn't be such a bad idea. I wouldn't trust the paramedics to get to the ranges I frequent in any reasonable amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Bart, I'd think (if anyone got sued) everyone would get sued: Match Director, any assistants, stage designer, RO, the host club itself, etc...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Vigilante Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Recently at the NM State IDPA match, the city which runs the range required us to obtain liability insurance for the match. From my recollection we had to buy a 6 mo. policy which wasn't cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Bart,I'd think (if anyone got sued) everyone would get sued: Match Director, any assistants, stage designer, RO, the host club itself, etc...... Unfortunately, I'm certain you're right about that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Our range has NRA liability insurance. I believe we have $2mil for the club & another $2mil for the owner(might only be $1mil but .....). It is not exorbitantly expensive for the coverage. I think we pay somewhere along the lines of $600 or so per year. The insurance co seemed to mainly be concerned whether or not we had a swimming pool(??????) as far as giving us coverage. The irony of the pool question is our range is way in the middle of nowhere & you wouldn't want to have a pool out in all that dirt so it was almost a laughing matter when we answered the question. We don't even have electricity, much less a well or water of any sort out there. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) 6 months? Ouch! I have seen "event" policies for all sorts of specialty events from Culture Days to Renaissance fairs to car shows. Event policies can have policy periods of just days. You might have to go to an excess/surplus insurer to find that type of policy for this type of event. I would imagine most ranges and municipalities i(f they own the land) would require that they be named as additional insureds on the policy that they would require the hosting club to purchase. edited for two quick points. 1. Yes, if suit is filed EVERYONE gets named probably even the hot dog vendor. 2. Premium cost is a funny thing. It is not driven by the apparent danger, but more by loss history. We play with dangerous things but as Elmer Fudd says we do so "Vewy, Vewy carefullwy". I can't tell you the number of pool drownings in the Phoenix area this year. Lots. Swimming pools..... bad for insurance. USPSA members handling guns. Not so much. Edited November 30, 2009 by Neomet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I would like to set up a USPSA/steel challenge club on the Illinois side of the river, across from St. Louis. The state run range down at Sparta, IL would be ideal. It is the World Recreation and Shooting Complex, where the ATA has their Grand national trapshooting championships. The WRSC has 12 bays all nicely cut in, all in a line. They already hold CAS matches there. I once chatted them up about it. They said I would have to get liability insurance. That was one stumbling block. And then at anothe point when I finally got a hold of them they said, "Oh, you guys shoot modern pistols.... oh, your bullets travel to fast." I never went back to pester them again about setting up competitions there. I am ASSuming getting insurance would entail becoming an LLC.... then filing taxes.... Shooting a match on this side of the river shouldn't involve a 2 hour drive.... or all the "corporate" hassle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I am sure that if insurance becomes an issue, some clubs will drop out. Skydiving is a bigger sport, with more injuries and deaths, even. USPA-United States Parachute Association provides all members with insurance and a membership is required to dive. In any case, skydiving is expensive, also scuba diving. If insurance becomes an issue, either USPSA dues, and or match fees will go up. Is there an issue that is driving this? Other than a couple of guys sitting around talking?. I mean you can buy insurance for anything, it is just really expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 In our case both the host range and the USPSA club have general liability insurance. Both are also incorporated as non-profit LLCs. As a Match Director for the USPSA club (and Club President), my Attorney (who is a competitor) strongly suggested that I get some protection for myself and the club. As a recognized and authorized Range Safety Officer by the range, I am protected under their liability- but I have been involved in enough lawsuits to know that EVERYONE involved gets named, so I wanted further protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Is there an issue that is driving this? Other than a couple of guys sitting around talking?. I mean you can buy insurance for anything, it is just really expensive. Nope, there really wasn't another issue. We were just chatting, it sort of came up and we both went "huh, I've never really thought about that before". R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I mean, I'm concerned, too. I am not sure what the future holds. I hate to mention stuff like this, because every time I do, it becomes my job. You are a brave man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) The status of any number of things discussed so far here vary from state to state and they vary widely. Liability Waivers: Once upon a time every state held them void against public policy. That has eroded somewhat by newer state laws (driven in several states by ski lift operators and my home state gives blanke immunity for the horse people) that will uphold them if they point out specific risks and dangers along the lines of "informed consent" like you sign for a medical procedure. So if you have a well drawn waiver some states might actually uphold them but not all. The problems with the waivers I have seen drawn, even those well drawn, is that they almost always cover just the range and their staff which may or may not be the organizers of the event, the MD, and the ROs. Event Coverage: Many many nonprofits hold everything from golf tournments to wine tastings and almost all seure liability insurance for the event. This may be necessary for a match not sponsored by the range which would include a state, sectional, charity, or other event not hosted by the range itself. Every premium I have ever had quoted appeared to be very reasonable to me and a bargain given the total possible exposure. But again, this is almost always going to cover the organizers of the match and may or may not include match range staff unless the organizaer of the event purchases the policy vs. the range buying the policy. Range or Event Coverage offered by USPSA: Unfortunately there is none. I raised the question a few years back about USPSA offering coverage to range officers, match directors and range masters who had current certifications as part of an incentive for members to become certified and remain certified but at the time money was tight and this is not an issue that the USPSA BOD felt needed to be further explored. I would hope that it does not take a serious event to raise this matter to more urgetnt consideration since it would be an especially poor outcome for a match to be held in a state that upholds waivers where an insured range was not subject to liability becasue of a well drawn waiver but the member who was the RO, CRO or RM who may have volunteered and come to assist from another club and hence were not covered under the waiver since they were not club members had to shoulder the burden alone. Coverage with Membership: Not only does the skydivers who are members have insurance, so do swimmers. Most competitive swim teams require all of their members to be members of USA Swimming who affords blanket coverage to the swimmers, the facility, the officials, and even the coaches. Of course it helps to keep the premium down that both the swimmers and the sky divers have very large memberships. On the other hand the training requirements and annual testing by NROI should help us. And there may be lots of other ways to deal with this other than an across the board increase in dues {maybe higher match fees or a policy that USPSA can negotiabe that will cover the staff in a match?) but this is again something that is going to have to be explored by the BOD to find the most feasible solution. The bottom line is that there is not any rule of law that is going to apply to every state. I would certainly urge insurance that provides the best possible coverage for any shooting event. If waivers are used, have someone who practices personal injury law actually review them to see if they might work, tighten up the language to specify the specific risks, and make sure it includes language protecting all the match staff and not just the range. I would also urge any member of USPSA who is conerned about this issue to contact their respective BOD member since sqeaky wheels get the grease. Edited November 30, 2009 by Charles Bond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) The insurance part of this question includes several parts: 1. First there is your club's liability. By this I mean the owner lessee or legal entity responsible for the land and what occurs on it. Often this is pretty simple as the entity that owns or leases the land is the same one that operates the shooting sports. For example the club itself is affilliated with USPSA. In these cases the club purchases liability (and property and D&O, etc.) in its name and covers all activities subject to the terms of the policy. The "subject to the terms of the policy" part is the kicker. Many clubs use the NRA sponsored insurance program and I did a review of this program a few years ago and found out a lot of interesting information. (Note I said a few years ago so some of this information may have changed and you should review your current policy to confirm.) The NRA pro-forma policy covers the Named insured and covers club members while acting as such. It may not cover for example a non-member RO, CRO, etc. even thought the Named Insured and other members sued would be covered. There are numerous other limitations in the NRA pro-forma policy, but this would become a blog quickly if I were to go through them. 2. If the USPSA club is a separate entity then they would have to buy their own insurance. This could be an NRA program policy also, but could be a specifically designed program through some other insurance carriers. There are at least 30-40 who will do various forms of this coverage and your insurance agent can usually access most of them. The key would be who is insured beside the Named Insured. "Members, officers, employees, volunteers and competitors" would be best. 3. Single event coverage can also be purchased from a wide variety of carriers for special matches where the operating entity(ies) are not perfectly clear. For example charity matches, area matches etc. This is often very reasonable if the agent and company are knowledgeable about the shooting sports and it is well worth it. Remember the above comments on who is insured. 4. There is no exclusion in most personal liability policies (usually Homeowners) for shooting activities. So the non-member RO mentioned above could have coverage under their homeowners for their liability for voluntary activities. If something were to occur, though, I would not depend on a renewal of that policy. There is often an exclusion for business activities so it would be a legal question if paid RO's were more than volunteers, but I would certainly testify in court that the usual payment is a losing proposition and still a volunteer activity and not a business. There is also usually an exclusion for intentional acts but this is usually only applied if the person does something truly intentional and and not accidental. Think the RO grabbing the gun and shooting an enemy. As for the liability releases, I will leave it to the lawyers, but in the thousands of claims I have seen they seldom work to really protect the entity. Edited November 30, 2009 by Paul B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 There was some discussion on this topic years ago. Very likely long lost. This is the only reference I can find. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=197623 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Our club formed an LLC and we also have a liability policy. I think the policy runs around $700.00 per year for a million dollars. We are concerned with trip hazards, folks setting up and tearing down, props striking a competitor, and so forth. In Wyoming, gun shot wounds or other injuries caused by a competitor are not an issue as far as club liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 When I was Area Director, I bought a 7 day rider tacked onto the exisiting liability insurance for the range that hosted the A4 matches. It was for $1 million, and didn't cost much at all. (Less than $100, IIRC) No problem getting it, either. Everyone did sign a waiver, required by the range owners, as well. It's really a matter of asking about liablity insurance for an "event" rather than long term, if that's what you need for a specific match. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) Once again, I can't imagine why somebody would post a legal question here on this forum and expect reliable information. It's about like walking into Wal-Mart and asking the clerk at the sporting goods counter a technical question about firearms. Some of the posts above have excellent advice--and some are pretty much nonsense. I don't mean to sound like a shill for the legal fraternity, but for everybody's sake I'll say it again--if you want good legal advice you can actually count on, you need to talk with an experienced civil litigation attorney licensed in your state. I could tell you exactly how it all works in the state where I practice law. But the information I would convey would only apply to Iowa, not Michigan or any other jurisdiction. And I do this shit for a living. Edited December 2, 2009 by Carmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Agree with Carmoney. I am more than happy to discuss the enforceability of recreational and/or event liability releases in Colorado, and also the specific Colorado statute which provides that people at shooting ranges "assume the risk" of injury, and how those issues could [or not] affect potential exposures to liability. Not to be a stick-in-the-mud, but as an experienced civil trial attorney who also teaches continuing education classes in legal ethics, I believe that (a) you get exactly what you pay for when you receive free "legal" opinions over an internet forum, and ( giving legal advice to such an open-ended question, and to an open and unknown audience, is fraught with potential for problems, both legal and ethical. Also agree with Ron Akeny and, if I had a client who asked, I would likely suggest several layers of protection including an appropriate form of entity, membership in that entity by the participants, liability releases/waivers, appropriate insurance coverages, etc... Paul B gave a very thorough explanation of potential liability exposures and the insurance coverages available. Lots of things to consider. Ciao for now. -br Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I'm worried that I came across a little too strong in my previous post. I hope everybody understands I don't mean to be critical of G-manBart or the others who chimed in. It's an excellent and important question, and it invokes a topic we all need to consider. I'm sure Bart is looking more for general thoughts on the topic rather than specific legal advice. I just want to be sure everybody understands that relying on internet legal advice is truly a "trap for the unwary" (to quote one of my professors from law school). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Boy did I came up with quite a few things to say about anyone who would sue their club and the lawyers that would take the case,,, but I am keeping my mouth shut. I long for the days of good ole personal responsabilty and sometimes #&^% happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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