carharttfarmer Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 shooting revolver this weekend 1 shooter noticed as i reloded behind a barracad that i break the 180 when i tip the revolver up to dump the spent shells doesnt seem to be a problem when theres nothing infront of me so my question is this a dq or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 ....i break the 180.... 10.5.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 A lot of revolver shooters get way too close to the 180 when they reload with the switch-hands method with the thumb on the ejector rod. I saw a wheelgunner get DQ'd at an area match a couple years ago for that violation. In my view, this is one of the biggest advantages of keeping the revolver in the strong hand and reloading with the weak hand. It is much easier to maintain total muzzle discipline when the gun stays in the strong hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I agree with Carmoney on this. When I was reloading switch hands, I was experiencing a lot of muzzle movement side to side. Not saying switch hands can not be done safely. When I switched to a weak hand reload, all the muzzle movement is up/down and with the gun staying gripped by the strong hand it is much easier to maintain muzzle control. Especially when you are reloading not facing downrange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 shooting revolver this weekend 1 shooter noticed as i reloded behind a barracad that i break the 180 when i tip the revolver up to dump the spent shells doesnt seem to be a problem when theres nothing infront of me so my question is this a dq or not Are you talking about breaking the 180 vertically or horizontally? Vertically will depend on what your club or range decides is unsafe. If it is horizontally then you are standing too close to the barricade and need to back up and yes it is a DQ. Beyond a straight rules answer, it appears that you have not done much practice trying to reload with something in front of you. Start with dry fire at home or at the range until you know that all your gun handling needs are perfomed safely. Have you tried running to your weak side along a wall with the gun at least 45 degrees down range? Once you put bullets in a gun is not the time to start thinking about safety, it must be absolutely 100% instinctive brain reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Are you talking about breaking the 180 vertically or horizontally? Vertically will depend on what your club or range decides is unsafe. If it is horizontally then you are standing too close to the barricade and need to back up and yes it is a DQ. Leroy, there's no exception for for breaking the 180 vertically in 10.5.2 --- local club or range rules don't matter. Break the 180 up, down, or sideways and it's a match DQ.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Are you talking about breaking the 180 vertically or horizontally? Vertically will depend on what your club or range decides is unsafe. If it is horizontally then you are standing too close to the barricade and need to back up and yes it is a DQ. Leroy, there's no exception for for breaking the 180 vertically in 10.5.2 --- local club or range rules don't matter. Break the 180 up, down, or sideways and it's a match DQ.... Where the question about the 180 come in for reloading a revolver "switch hand" is that the handgun is in front of the shooter, and the determination of breaking the 180 comes from the RO seeing the barrels muzzle(from my experience, and discussion with RO's). Now even if the revolver is held straight vertical the muzzle can often be seen, and the 180 is not broken. If I hold my revolver about chest high the muzzle can possibly be seen WITHOUT the 180 being broken. The rule covers everyone, but the application is the challenging part at times. I have heard RO's say that if they can see the muzzle, then the 180 has been broken. I am careful about my reloads for safety reasons (of course), but also as not to give the RO any indication that I have broken the 180. On another point in your response, I have to disagree. You state, "Break the 180 up, down, or sideways and it's a match DQ". How many times have you seen shooters break the 180 rehostering? I have even seen it from shooters even using those forward cant holsters. That would definitely be a break in the 180 pointing down. My point being that it is not only the rule that matters, but the application. All that said, it is hard to judge the 180 being broken easily without being there. Unless it is a major violation. Even when I took the RO certification class this was an issue that was admiltted to be tough. Edited November 25, 2009 by Blueridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I can't look up the rule right now but I belive you are allowed a 3' radius arround your feet for the muzzle to point Bronx the 180 during holstering or un holstering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 we probably need to quit saying 180, there is no rule that says anything about breaking the 180, this can become an issue of professionalism, especially if you are issuing a DQ to a Master shooter at an an Area match, 10.5.2 says...... further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of backstop..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Are you talking about breaking the 180 vertically or horizontally? Vertically will depend on what your club or range decides is unsafe. If it is horizontally then you are standing too close to the barricade and need to back up and yes it is a DQ. Leroy, there's no exception for for breaking the 180 vertically in 10.5.2 --- local club or range rules don't matter. Break the 180 up, down, or sideways and it's a match DQ.... 10.5.2 "If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6)." I don't see a stipulation for vertical direction such as you have implied. And I remember a lot of joking at the 2007 Hangdun Nationals about firing a round over our backstop (1700 feet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 On another point in your response, I have to disagree. You state, "Break the 180 up, down, or sideways and it's a match DQ". How many times have you seen shooters break the 180 rehostering? I have even seen it from shooters even using those forward cant holsters. That would definitely be a break in the 180 pointing down. My point being that it is not only the rule that matters, but the application.All that said, it is hard to judge the 180 being broken easily without being there. Unless it is a major violation. Even when I took the RO certification class this was an issue that was admiltted to be tough. We're talking about revolver reloading, right? If we're going to extend the conversation to drawing or reholstering, then 10.5.6 provides a limited exception for breaking the 180 (or the 90 for Joe ). Yep, you're right --- it takes experience to let revolver shooters unload without calling an early 180 violation. I have seen autoloader shooters break the 180 up, down and sideways --- hence my comment.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 we probably need to quit saying 180, there is no rule that says anything about breaking the 180, this can become an issue of professionalism, especially if you are issuing a DQ to a Master shooter at an an Area match, 10.5.2 says...... further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of backstop..... Seriously? Go find a Master who doesn't know what "180" refers to..... :D Clearly we should cite the correct rule or rules in the event of a match DQ, but to suggest that we eliminate a well-defined term that virtually everyone in the sport can explain strikes me as a little over the top..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I can't look up the rule right now but I belive you are allowed a 3' radius arround your feet for the muzzle to point Bronx the 180 during holstering or un holstering 10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while drawing or re-holstering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 On another point in your response, I have to disagree. You state, "Break the 180 up, down, or sideways and it's a match DQ". How many times have you seen shooters break the 180 rehostering? I have even seen it from shooters even using those forward cant holsters. That would definitely be a break in the 180 pointing down. My point being that it is not only the rule that matters, but the application.All that said, it is hard to judge the 180 being broken easily without being there. Unless it is a major violation. Even when I took the RO certification class this was an issue that was admiltted to be tough. We're talking about revolver reloading, right? If we're going to extend the conversation to drawing or reholstering, then 10.5.6 provides a limited exception for breaking the 180 (or the 90 for Joe ). Yep, you're right --- it takes experience to let revolver shooters unload without calling an early 180 violation. I have seen autoloader shooters break the 180 up, down and sideways --- hence my comment.... I disagreed because it appeared to be a blanket 180 statement initially, and I knew that there were exceptions (drawing and holstering). Yes we are discussing reloading revolvers, but it seemed that clarification was needed on a general statement. Hence my original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Are you talking about breaking the 180 vertically or horizontally? Vertically will depend on what your club or range decides is unsafe. If it is horizontally then you are standing too close to the barricade and need to back up and yes it is a DQ. Leroy, there's no exception for for breaking the 180 vertically in 10.5.2 --- local club or range rules don't matter. Break the 180 up, down, or sideways and it's a match DQ.... 10.5.2 "If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6)." I don't see a stipulation for vertical direction such as you have implied. And I remember a lot of joking at the 2007 Hangdun Nationals about firing a round over our backstop (1700 feet). There isn't a vertical stipulation. As in there is no horizontal stipulation. Breaking the 180 any which way is a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Are you talking about breaking the 180 vertically or horizontally? Vertically will depend on what your club or range decides is unsafe. If it is horizontally then you are standing too close to the barricade and need to back up and yes it is a DQ. Leroy, there's no exception for for breaking the 180 vertically in 10.5.2 --- local club or range rules don't matter. Break the 180 up, down, or sideways and it's a match DQ.... 10.5.2 "If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6)." I don't see a stipulation for vertical direction such as you have implied. And I remember a lot of joking at the 2007 Hangdun Nationals about firing a round over our backstop (1700 feet). There's no stipulation for any direction. Normally people break the 180 by turning too far to one side or the other -- by engaging a target that is uprange of their position, or by getting the gun caught on something that causes it to point uprange. Those aren't the only ways though.... A revolver shooter could point the barrel up during unloading and could actually break the 180 plane by coming over the top. I saw a competitor some years ago, who dropped her gun hand to her side, muzzle pointing toward the ground and proceeded to move downrange while vigorously swinging both arms --- muzzle coming back to point at the feet and legs of the RO trailing her downrange.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 On another point in your response, I have to disagree. You state, "Break the 180 up, down, or sideways and it's a match DQ". How many times have you seen shooters break the 180 rehostering? I have even seen it from shooters even using those forward cant holsters. That would definitely be a break in the 180 pointing down. My point being that it is not only the rule that matters, but the application.All that said, it is hard to judge the 180 being broken easily without being there. Unless it is a major violation. Even when I took the RO certification class this was an issue that was admiltted to be tough. We're talking about revolver reloading, right? If we're going to extend the conversation to drawing or reholstering, then 10.5.6 provides a limited exception for breaking the 180 (or the 90 for Joe ). Yep, you're right --- it takes experience to let revolver shooters unload without calling an early 180 violation. I have seen autoloader shooters break the 180 up, down and sideways --- hence my comment.... I disagreed because it appeared to be a blanket 180 statement initially, and I knew that there were exceptions (drawing and holstering). Yes we are discussing reloading revolvers, but it seemed that clarification was needed on a general statement. Hence my original post. Gotcha..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Where the question about the 180 come in for reloading a revolver "switch hand" is that the handgun is in front of the shooter, and the determination of breaking the 180 comes from the RO seeing the barrels muzzle(from my experience, and discussion with RO's). Now even if the revolver is held straight vertical the muzzle can often be seen, and the 180 is not broken. If I hold my revolver about chest high the muzzle can possibly be seen WITHOUT the 180 being broken. I think such emphasis on seeing the muzzle or not seeing the muzzle is misplaced. It's the "90 degree from the backstop and/or angled up range" that is the deciding factor, and that's what I look for. I aim to maintain a viewpoint of the competitor that can best judge that angle...and don't ever want to place myself in a situation where I am looking at a muzzle. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Getting back to the original issue--180 violations and the revolver reload--the most common problem I see with guys who do the "switch hands" style of reload is not flipping the muzzle up too far and going past the up-and-down 180 (although I have seen that happen multiple times). The problem I see is the muzzle coming back past the side-to-side 180 when a right-handed shooter is conducting a reload with his body turned or moving to the left. It's not necessarily revolver-specific, either. I see quite a few auto shooters who break the 180 reloading while moving straight left. Regardless of the type of handgun, if your reload method ever causes the muzzle to be pointed somewhat to the left while facing downrange, if you do the same thing while running straight left you will break the 180 plane for sure. It's just something to be very aware of. Or to put it more professionally for Joe: "It's just something of which to be very aware." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Are you talking about breaking the 180 vertically or horizontally? Vertically will depend on what your club or range decides is unsafe. If it is horizontally then you are standing too close to the barricade and need to back up and yes it is a DQ. Leroy, there's no exception for for breaking the 180 vertically in 10.5.2 --- local club or range rules don't matter. Break the 180 up, down, or sideways and it's a match DQ.... 10.5.2 "If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6)." I don't see a stipulation for vertical direction such as you have implied. And I remember a lot of joking at the 2007 Hangdun Nationals about firing a round over our backstop (1700 feet). Well, you could fire a round at, towards, or near the top of your backstop and still not break the 180. We're talking about breaking the 180 over your head, muzzle up and pointing backwards, which is, according to 10.5.2, a DQ. Side to side, over your head, or behind you pointing at the ground (except while holstering), is a DQ. Fire a round that way, and it's probably not going to hit your backstop, but it might land in that pretty river... Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
professor Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Getting back to the original issue--180 violations and the revolver reload--the most common problem I see with guys who do the "switch hands" style of reload is not flipping the muzzle up too far and going past the up-and-down 180 (although I have seen that happen multiple times). The problem I see is the muzzle coming back past the side-to-side 180 when a right-handed shooter is conducting a reload with his body turned or moving to the left. It's not necessarily revolver-specific, either. I see quite a few auto shooters who break the 180 reloading while moving straight left. Regardless of the type of handgun, if your reload method ever causes the muzzle to be pointed somewhat to the left while facing downrange, if you do the same thing while running straight left you will break the 180 plane for sure. It's just something to be very aware of. Or to put it more professionally for Joe: "It's just something of which to be very aware." As an RO, I've seen right-handed auto shooters turn their wrist 90°, so the pistol ends up horizontal after dropping the mag, and is pointed about 45° to the left of the direction they are facing. This is fine when they're moving forward or to the right, but it'll break the 180 unless they're careful when moving to the left. As a revo shooter, I'll use a strong hand reload but my weak hand has the revolver secured with the muzzle facing no more than 45° up or to the left side. Again, there's no problem facing straight downrange or moving to the right. But if the stage REQUIRES moving to the left, then I'll force myself to do a weak hand reload to avoid any chance of breaking the 180 on the reload. I'm more worried about leaving my finger in the trigger guard than I am about breaking the 180. You have to practice both ways so you can do either as the stage situation requires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 As an RO, I've seen right-handed auto shooters turn their wrist 90°, so the pistol ends up horizontal after dropping the mag, and is pointed about 45° to the left of the direction they are facing. This is fine when they're moving forward or to the right, but it'll break the 180 unless they're careful when moving to the left. Yes. Very, very common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Getting back to the original issue--180 violations and the revolver reload--the most common problem I see with guys who do the "switch hands" style of reload is not flipping the muzzle up too far and going past the up-and-down 180 (although I have seen that happen multiple times). The problem I see is the muzzle coming back past the side-to-side 180 when a right-handed shooter is conducting a reload with his body turned or moving to the left. It's not necessarily revolver-specific, either. I see quite a few auto shooters who break the 180 reloading while moving straight left. Regardless of the type of handgun, if your reload method ever causes the muzzle to be pointed somewhat to the left while facing downrange, if you do the same thing while running straight left you will break the 180 plane for sure. It's just something to be very aware of. Or to put it more professionally for Joe: "It's just something of which to be very aware." As an RO, I've seen right-handed auto shooters turn their wrist 90°, so the pistol ends up horizontal after dropping the mag, and is pointed about 45° to the left of the direction they are facing. This is fine when they're moving forward or to the right, but it'll break the 180 unless they're careful when moving to the left. As a revo shooter, I'll use a strong hand reload but my weak hand has the revolver secured with the muzzle facing no more than 45° up or to the left side. Again, there's no problem facing straight downrange or moving to the right. But if the stage REQUIRES moving to the left, then I'll force myself to do a weak hand reload to avoid any chance of breaking the 180 on the reload. I'm more worried about leaving my finger in the trigger guard than I am about breaking the 180. You have to practice both ways so you can do either as the stage situation requires. I friend of mine loads weak hand , and when running left to right in an ICORE match he was cautioned about his muzzle. He was running in line with the 180 gun straight in front of him. As he reaches for his reload, the muzzle ever so slightly gets on the 180 line. Mainly because the movement of running has the muzzle bobbing a little bit and for just a short moment he glances down for his speedloader. So my point is , no matter which method is used, the shooter MUST be cognizant of muzzle control at all times. Sometimes easier said than done in the heat of the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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