Guninhand Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 I was once in an IPSC match with a buddy who was shooting a field course. Along the way there were 4 targets just inside a barrier. My buddy just blew by 'em, and when scoring time came, he claimed he had shot at them and missed. I guess he knew he had taken enough shots overall to not get caught with the shots registered on the timer, and I also guess the not-too-experienced RO was too busy watching for safety infractions to pick it up. Yes, there was a prize table. My buddy was not the least bothered by this dishonesty. Apparently, he believes, and apparently, many others believe, that this type of gameing is par for the course. IOW, they believe that the big time mucky-mucks in the sport,gamers, have a win at all costs attitude, and they have set precedents that justify this dishonesty. There is a chinese saying, it doesn't pay to be the only honest man in a room full of liars. True, but this kind of behaviour is a big turn-off to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 I noticed you called him your "buddy" not your "friend". There IS a difference. What your buddy did is cheating. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 nobody, i mean nobody misses 4 targets in one array. tell your buddy to be a man and take his lumps. and the ro should have given the procedurals. lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 Geez.. he's already eating 120 points (8 mikes, 8 non-alphas), what's another 4 FTE's? Anyway, although there have been times I've disputed an FTE because I honestly couldn't remember if I engaged a particular target or not, I've never had that problem with 4 targets in a row... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 Apparently, he believes, and apparently, many others believe, that this type of gameing is par for the course. IOW, they believe that the big time mucky-mucks in the sport,gamers, have a win at all costs attitude, and they have set precedents that justify this dishonesty.There is a chinese saying, it doesn't pay to be the only honest man in a room full of liars. True, but this kind of behaviour is a big turn-off to me. Guninhand, You and your buddy believe wrong! I personally have seen big time mucky-mucks in the sport (TJ, TGO, MV & others) point out their errors to the RO when the RO missed the call and yes there were prize tables involved. I've seen them point out their own no-shoot hits that the RO missed. Perhaps some of your local big time mucky-mucks in the sport have a win by any means attitude, but it by no means permeates the sport. This is a pretty small society and such behavior IS noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guninhand Posted November 30, 2003 Author Share Posted November 30, 2003 My buddy/friend missed them because they were just inside a waist high horizontal barrier that you had to rush up to and engage multiple targets further out, plus I think one or maybe 2 of the close ones were no shoots. Then there was another one, different shooter, who did a field course and the RO scored and signed off on his score sheet. There was a rush on to get finished on time, then a patcher advised a no shoot had been hit but not recorded, which was indeed the case. The RO wanted to change the score but the shooter insisted the signed-off score had to stand. There wa another case where a top shooter started a course and had to stop because he left of his ear protection. The RO let him start again. This was before the rule change. It also happens fairly frequently that a shooter who does a miss on a target will insist he's got two bullets through the same hole, and can get quite indignant when you tell him he's full of it. While I doubt any of the really big names would try those stunts, they are also at matches with top-of-the-line ROs. My point is to realize these people are among us, it's all too easy to assume gun guy=good guy. I was once at a rifle shoot and someone moved the sight on my rifle when it was placed back on the rack. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 There seems to be a mistaken belief among some shooters (and RO's). Somehow, they are under the impression that if they fire enough extra rounds in a stage...then that magically means they have engaged every target. A competitor who fails to shoot at any target with at least one round will incur 1 procedural penalty per target... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 There are cheaters in every competitive sport I've played in......Blatant behavior like this tends to become visible to all eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 I noticed you called him your "buddy" not your "friend". There IS a difference. What your buddy did is cheating. Bill Nesbitt There is a BIG difference between gaming a stage and cheating. Bill is right, that was cheating. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 in IPSC, engaging targets is optional. You can choose not to, at your pleasure, and this has nothing to do with cheating. But you will have to eat the misses and FTE penalties. I have yet to see a course where someone blew by 4 close static targets, ate 80 penalty points, and won... w/ or w/o FTEs... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 in IPSC, engaging targets is optional. You can choose not to, at your pleasure, and this has nothing to do with cheating. But you will have to eat the misses and FTE penalties. I have yet to see a course where someone blew by 4 close static targets, ate 80 penalty points, and won... w/ or w/o FTEs...--Detlef Certainly. Telling an official that you did engage them when you did not is unsportsmanlike. I think they have another penalty for that.... -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Who cares if you can't "prove" he intentionally missed the targets. Let him claim his spot at the prize table after he saved 2 seconds by losing 120 points!! Things all seem to work out in the end.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I don't know whether it's gamemanship or cheating, but I saw a pretty highly classified shooter claim doubles on at least 3 stages of a match. The RO's were a little new and wanted very much to give all shooters the benefit of the doubt so 2 of the three doubles were awarded. I saw the holes and all were only a single hole. I know of people who always yell "double" in jest with a smile but I've never seen it done seriously like that. Anyway I couldn't have done it with a straight face. It's bothering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Then there was another one, different shooter, who did a field course and the RO scored and signed off on his score sheet. There was a rush on to get finished on time, then a patcher advised a no shoot had been hit but not recorded, which was indeed the case. The RO wanted to change the score but the shooter insisted the signed-off score had to stand. At a match, its the R.O. responsible for scoring targets, not tapers. If the R.O. misses it, and then signs the sheet, and the shooter signs the sheet, the deals done regardless of what someone may notice after this fact, I'd guess. To take your example of dishonesty a step further, who's to say that the taper didn't pull a sticky off no-shoot after scoring then try to bring it to the R.O.'s attention? The R.O.s scoring of the stage has to stand..... On "Doubles", I've been at a major matche where a shooter would call a double on a 8 or 9 of 12 stages..... unfortuneately, the R.O.s are fresh at each stage, and just pulled targets each time.... the shooter got about half of the hits awarded back to him for his efforts. When the squad started giving the R.O.s a heads up that this joker was calling doubles every stage (while clearly shooting faster than his ability), the squads complaints went on deaf ears. There needs to be some kind of rule about how many times any given shooter is allowed to challenge for a double ruling.... or at least track the number of requests at a match per shooter, to identify trends.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 S40, I'm not sure I see the problem. If the targets got pulled, they were inspected by the RM, no? If the RM chooses to score them as a double, IMHO, they probably were --- I have yet to encounter an inexperienced RM.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billwright Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Jeees Mate, A shooter in the heat of the moment might, if its a long course of fire, and if he had an elderly moment think he really had engaged an array of targets .................However there is no way the R/O could miss him not engaging them and there is no excuse for this even if they were holding hands behind the bike sheds afterwards. The real point at issue here is where were YOU and the rest of the squad who watched and said nothing,?? where i come from the rest of the squad and your mates will keep you honest no matter what. Stand up and help the counting boy. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 It isn't the squad's job to score. The ONLY people that should be involved in scoring a run is the shooter, the RO, and the scorekeeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Jake I think what billwright is saying is that if you shoot with your buds, they will shame you into scoring it correctly and not allowing you to claim some hits you didn't evey shoot at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Although I would not be too hasty saying that "there is no way that a RO could miss a shooter failing to engage 4 targets", in this case the shooter is IMO cheating. Even more, if I as an RO would find out that he falsely claims to have engaged targets AND tries to pull this one more than once, I would DQ him for unsportsmanlike conduct. But believe me, a lot of stages can be (are !) designed in such a way that it is very difficult for the RO to really tell whether the shooter has engaged every single target. (But four is a significant number, that's true. I just want to caution about making strong statements when you haven't actually been there to see it youself). And for shooters claiming a double shot every time: If a shooter, any shooter, claims a double shot I WILL pull out my overlay and investigate a little bit closer. I have never had a shooter wanting to pull the target after that, but if they want to, it's their show, although I personally find it not-so-nice behaviour. In this case however it's much harder to prove that a shooter is just trying to get more than he deserves. Bottom line is: come on, be a man and take your misses and other penalties. Play the game as a man ! (No offense meant to the ladies ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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