Larue drift

[TonyH]

Maybe for another topic but applies to the LaRues we shot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the RO's are not resposible for making sure you hit a target under USPSA rules are they? Wouldn't that be coaching? We don't do this to any other targets we shoot in USPSA. Steel must fall to score under the rule book.

Hits were called on stage 1, & a reshoot was given because the RO quit calling hits half way through.

Shooting over the rail as many did, most had to stand on top of the fault line board & many had their foot over the fault line touching the ground & no penalties were given??????? Answer given was that they didn't apply any pressure to the ground for stability so it was not a penalty, again,?????????????

Stage 2 if an RO called a hit by mistake & it was not they told you to proceed & it was their fault,???????? Again steel must fall to score. Did not hear of this happen, but this was told to everyone in their walk through. How can this be included in a walk through under USPSA rules.

Again just questions maybe someone more knowledgable than me could answer.

Tony

[ken hebert]

Maybe for another topic but applies to the LaRues we shot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the RO's are not resposible for making sure you hit a target under USPSA rules are they? Wouldn't that be coaching? We don't do this to any other targets we shoot in USPSA. Steel must fall to score under the rule book.

Hits were called on stage 1, & a reshoot was given because the RO quit calling hits half way through.

Shooting over the rail as many did, most had to stand on top of the fault line board & many had their foot over the fault line touching the ground & no penalties were given??????? Answer given was that they didn't apply any pressure to the ground for stability so it was not a penalty, again,?????????????

Stage 2 if an RO called a hit by mistake & it was not they told you to proceed & it was their fault,???????? Again steel must fall to score. Did not hear of this happen, but this was told to everyone in their walk through. How can this be included in a walk through under USPSA rules.

Again just questions maybe someone more knowledgable than me could answer.

Tony

disclaimer: i certainly do not claim to be knowledgeable, merely opinionated. but i have stayed in a holiday in express..

a shooter may stand on a fault line and let their foot hang over and no penalties will be given as long as that foot does not actually touch the ground on the front side of the fault line. as to that exact interpritation.. (no pressure) i guess it's subjective... maybe he just figures you are maybe just grazing the dust and not actually gaining any stability.

as to stage two and the RO's statement: he's only human and we do make mistakes. i think i made one back in '92... I dunno. IMO he was being a decent guy, was telling you he was going to try and call a hit just as fas as he possibly could so you could go on to the next one post haste...but that if he did make a mistake he wasnt gonna make you reverse direction and break your stride to make up for him screwing the pooch. I liked him!

I had a good call like that given to me at RM3G, and I can tell you it was really appreciated.

Edited October 28, 2009 by ken hebert

[TonyH]

Just trying to understand USPSA rules as applied to their matches. I've never seen in all the USPSA matches I have attended, were a foot over the fault line touching the ground was not a penalty & was subject to interpritation. In this case it was an advantage & should have been per shot fired.

Stage 2, would not have been an issue if steel was left to the shooter to make sure of his hits, under USPSA rules, as I understand them. This was not a so called outlaw match with different rules. I liked him also, but still trying to understand their rules as I read them.

[kurtm]

To get a hit you didn't earn is NOT a good call, Nor is a miss call, when you actually hit it. That is why all targets should fall. It couldn't have been a "good" call at RM3G...but it could have been a benificial call for you. I am not picking on ANYONE as I myself have made good and bad calls on "indicating" steel.

As for fault lines, if you touch the ground WHAT SO EVER you have a penalty coming. It doesn't matter if there is no pressure...and how the heck could anyone know how much pressure there was??? Bad call!

[bigbrowndog]

I would have to agree, as I said earlier Communication is not a skill that is testable in competition and should never be, until we get a scoring matrix capable of quantifying such an esoteric task. plates,popper should fall to be scored and if you feel you need to contest it then do it after you've finished the stage, and live with the outcome.

As for faultlines, I had always thought it was plain as could be, touching the ground was bad, I now know I will have to dispute the next faultline call with the "pressure applied" precedent that has been set.

trapr

[D.Hayden]

Larue's seem pretty obvious when you hit them (at least with Optics)

Steel, like flashers, is much more subjective.

If they don't call hits, even if you know or not, they may not score you correctly. A couple years back at a match in Oregon, the scorers couldn't see the targets, so if you'd just gone without hear them call it, you'd have zero'd out. I know this was a big issue for a lot of shooters. It got to the point, we had to tell them what target we were shooting at.. not exactly supported ny the rules.

I liked those targets at SMM3G last ueat with the stroes? Obvious to the shooter, and the scorer they were hit.

I still kike the Steel Plates idea that Trapr put up on the other thread. No question with those...

[Flexmoney]

Tony,

You have some really good questions on the rules here.

[ap3]

Maybe for another topic but applies to the LaRues we shot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the RO's are not resposible for making sure you hit a target under USPSA rules are they? Wouldn't that be coaching? We don't do this to any other targets we shoot in USPSA. Steel must fall to score under the rule book.

Hits were called on stage 1, & a reshoot was given because the RO quit calling hits half way through.

Shooting over the rail as many did, most had to stand on top of the fault line board & many had their foot over the fault line touching the ground & no penalties were given??????? Answer given was that they didn't apply any pressure to the ground for stability so it was not a penalty, again,?????????????

Stage 2 if an RO called a hit by mistake & it was not they told you to proceed & it was their fault,???????? Again steel must fall to score. Did not hear of this happen, but this was told to everyone in their walk through. How can this be included in a walk through under USPSA rules.

Again just questions maybe someone more knowledgable than me could answer.

Tony

That's the rules on the fault lines you touch you get the penalty Since I am 5"4" I was not able to test that position, so I got the pleasure of trying to shoot 200 yard targets offhand. Next year I am bringing a concrete block to the match.

Tony, you are right about it is not the responsibilty of the RO to call hits, but it has become the precedent. If they don't call the hits I don't believe a shooter is entitled to a reshoot. I have never found it hard to see a target fall or the orange of a flasher.

[ShooterSteve]

At the A6 three gun last year, on the long range rifle stage, they actually had several people calling hits simultaniously. On one target I had a clear miss, but one of the spotters yelled out HIT. I knew immediately that it was a miss and quickly retook the shot for the hit. I could have just gone on but I didn't think that it was the right thing to do. I know this is all a game, and most of us want to do the best we can, but we still need to at least TRY to follow the rules and do it the best we can. Even this lowly B shooter knows you can't touch outside the fault lines, but then what do you do if they are allowing everyone else to do it with no penalty?

[TonyH]

One other thing that seem to be odd is, we the competitors were even given the option of using the stage sponsor sign brace for a rest. Usually a vision barrier means walls go from top to bottom & can't be shot over or under. This was talked about before anyone shot the stage that there would be a board or plastic put up to prevent what happen, but it never happen. That brace was outside the shooting area & should not have been accessable for use, even if you could have reached it. I know some where in our rule book there is something about not being able to use a prop for this such thing. Most of our squad did not use this as a brace & brought the question up before we shot. Again correct me if I'm wrong, but I still confused on the rules, I guess.

Tony

[outerlimits]

it is a strange interpretation of the rules.

10.2.1 states:

A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occur­rence. However, if the competitor has gained a sig­nificant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one proce­dural penalty for each shot fired at the subject tar­get(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting.

i guess the argument was the sign was attached to the 1st box, even though the sign also was braced an touching the ground outside of the box. i remember a plastic pail right there that was clearly outside the box but screwed to the box. i asked if i could stand on it and shoot over the sign...RO said that would be considered out of the box.

[TonyH]

Wow! Still confused. Are we going to use the rules as written or adjust them to each stage. Sounds like the stage should have been thrown out instead of 2 1/2 squads reshooting it, even though it was a good stage to shoot.

[Religious Shooter]

Everybody had the option to use that brace. And it was attached to the bunker. So I thought it was a good position. I couldn't use it myself. But tough luck. Sometimes it helps being tall. And sometimes it helps being short.

The footfault... they should have given one penalty if they were teetering on the fault stick. If they were totally over the line and not teetering they should be given one penalty per shot fired.

For those that didn't go... it's at about 59 seconds into this vid.

[davecutts]

2.2.3.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such

barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers will be

considered to go from the ground to the height as constructed.

[bigbrowndog]

RS, I wasn't there so I do not know for sure, but unless you watched EVERY shooter how do you know if EVERYBODY had the option to use it??????

If people are saying the contrary perhaps they know more than you?????? or Were you there for every shooter? if so please disregard my query.

trapr

[Religious Shooter]

That barrier was there for everybody to use (if they could).

They didn't take it down for one squad and left it up for others. It was there the whole time.

[Religious Shooter]

And for a frame of reference, D Horner won stage one outright.

He is roughly my height.

If I couldn't use that position, I doubt he would have been able to use that position.

And even if he did use that position... Then it would just proves that short people could have used that barrier.

[outerlimits]

2.2.3.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such

barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers will be

considered to go from the ground to the height as constructed.

big dave's what, 7' 6" gotta like this rule. but, the RM told me that sign was not a wall or a vision barrier-just a sign.

[GentlemanJim]

I stood on that fault line...on tippy toes

Many used it ...I did not see a single foot touch the ground on the other side...but I only saw a couple squads shoot.

The best shooters shot those targets off hand...my hats off to them

Jim

[9x45]

I used the sign also, but asked the RO before hand, and he said as long as your foot doesn't touch the dirt, you are good. Sounds to me like the height challenged are complaining. Neither David C. nor Chris E., nor I, like the 14" low ports at Norco...

[Flexmoney]

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined

by the quality of the challenge presented in

the course design. Courses of fire must be designed

primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting

skills, not their physical abilities.

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied

degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time

limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This

does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which

should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s

height and physical build.

Seems like height ought to be a non-issue. Stage designers should strive to design with that in mind.

[GentlemanJim]

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined

by the quality of the challenge presented in

the course design. Courses of fire must be designed

primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting

skills, not their physical abilities.

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied

degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time

limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This

does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which

should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s

height and physical build.

Seems like height ought to be a non-issue. Stage designers should strive to desogn with that in mind.

Pretty sure that was not in the design...just one of those things that get exploited by the ones who find it

In retrospect..I am sure I could have done better on the stage by shooting off hand than by using that prop as a rest.

I really saw little to complain about in the stage design...that or any of the stages

All in all...pretty cool match

Jim