Bill Nesbitt Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Every sport (game) has it's own rule book. You need to know the rules to participate. Let's say you are a football player. And lets say you are golfing with Tiger. You think you will get any penalties for tackling him??? Know the rules or pay the penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 The rational for the PE is that "there is no provision for a speed reload in IDPA competition". Appendix Two spells out what the allowed reloads are and directs you to Appendix 11 where you will find this: "Reload, Speed or Slide Down: Recharging the gun when there is a round in the chamber by: Dropping the partial magazine on the ground. Drawing a spare magazine. Inserting the spare magazine into the gun. Leaving the partial or empty magazine behind. NOTE: There is NO provision for the speed reload in IDPA competition." David C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 The Rule Book also states, on page 41, under Appendix Two - Approved IDPA Reloads: Malfunction Clearing Exception: When clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speedloader that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty. Having the slide fail to lock to the rear when the gun is empty is a malfunction. Having to pop that magazine out of the gun, insert a fresh mag and then rack the action to get a round into the chamber is rectifying that malfunction, thus no requirement to retain the empty magazine. Really in this scenario you're just doing the same thing you'd normally do with an empty gun in the IDPA emergency reload (pop out the empty mag in the gun, let it hit the ground and leave it there, insert a fresh mag into the gun) but with the extra time penalty of then having to rack the slide instead of simply thumbing a slide release. This is lot different than a time saving speed reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bongo Boy Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I've only made this error when shooting the standard classifier stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) Every sport (game) has it's own rule book. You need to know the rules to participate. Let's say you are a football player. And lets say you are golfing with Tiger. You think you will get any penalties for tackling him??? Know the rules or pay the penalty. Yeah, but what if you're Serena Williams and you go bezerk on the ref for a call you don't like? Edited November 30, 2009 by Steve Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 FTDR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefcs5 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Here is why I believe it is a rule...IDPA is all about defensive pistol and they don't want gaming even though they take score and you are timed. In real life, you would not be counting your shots and you would shoot till empty or do a tactical reload if there was no eminent danger. If you do a combat reload (ie. not retaining mag), it is faster than doing a tactical reload or reload with retention. That would give you an advantage since you would already have one in the chamber and would not have to drop the slide. Counting your shots and dropping the mag with one in the chamber then reloading is not real life and IDPA is more about real life defensive pistol than practical shooting (USPSA). I don't shoot much IDPA so this is not intended to be in defense of IDPA, but just why I believe it is a rule. Hope this makes sense. Randy I like this explanation a lot but .. What if you are just reloading because there is a break in the action why count shots when you are trying to acess target threat or find cover and why shoot to slide lock if you have the chance to reload knowing you are getting low. becasue you know you gotta be close to low. I dunno seems like a rule that should be changed but prolly wont be..lol... darn games we play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Been dinged for this myself a few times. Once I got really hosed. Mag I was using failed to lock the slide back when the gun went dry - I dropped the mag and inserted a fresh one. You guessed it - 3 seconds more to my score. Forgot to mention that I racked the slide, but all the R/O saw was the slide down and that empty mag hitting the ground. He missed the slide rack. Oh well, sometime these things happen. Not much of an SO then..... Been there (on both sides) and had better outcomes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 No more complicated than USPSA.....just different. +1..... I'm happy that there's multiple games out there that present different shooting challenges.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Here is why I believe it is a rule...IDPA is all about defensive pistol and they don't want gaming even though they take score and you are timed. In real life, you would not be counting your shots and you would shoot till empty or do a tactical reload if there was no eminent danger. If you do a combat reload (ie. not retaining mag), it is faster than doing a tactical reload or reload with retention. That would give you an advantage since you would already have one in the chamber and would not have to drop the slide. Counting your shots and dropping the mag with one in the chamber then reloading is not real life and IDPA is more about real life defensive pistol than practical shooting (USPSA). I don't shoot much IDPA so this is not intended to be in defense of IDPA, but just why I believe it is a rule. Hope this makes sense. Randy I like this explanation a lot but .. What if you are just reloading because there is a break in the action why count shots when you are trying to acess target threat or find cover and why shoot to slide lock if you have the chance to reload knowing you are getting low. becasue you know you gotta be close to low. I dunno seems like a rule that should be changed but prolly wont be..lol... darn games we play The idea there is that you'd do a tactical reload/reload with retention --- because you don't know that there won't be more than 18 required hits in real life.... IOW, you might need the ammo down the road, so hang on to it..... That approach led to the weird construct of needing to retain an empty mag, if there's still a round in the chamber.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefcs5 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 No more complicated than USPSA.....just different. +1..... I'm happy that there's multiple games out there that present different shooting challenges.... Id actually prefer a 3rd option..one with idpa like stages and cover but with the rest of uspsa rules..lol. but i am sure im not the only one.. The idea there is that you'd do a tactical reload/reload with retention --- because you don't know that there won't be more than 18 required hits in real life....IOW, you might need the ammo down the road, so hang on to it..... The chances Id retain a mag in real life are ......hrmmm 0. yep thats it none..lol But in real life i carry 18+1 not 10 rounds so why not make it real carry to gun capacity ,,,,i kno cali kids cant have big boy guns... o well..lol..I carry on a regular basis and I have to say my carry rig and set up is nowhere near my idpa stuff. because after all its still a game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMuffin Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I think I'm going to go look for an IDPA match just so I can run my P7M13 and tweak the RO's when I go to slide lock and do a speed reload anyhow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 The chances Id retain a mag in real life are ......hrmmm 0. yep thats it none..lolBut in real life i carry 18+1 not 10 rounds so why not make it real carry to gun capacity ,,,,i kno cali kids cant have big boy guns... o well..lol.. Same as USPSA Production. The game turns into an equipment/capacity race, in which capacity becomes a primary advantage, and that moves more focus away from the shooting aspects. Standardizing on 10 reduces that factor. ...I carry on a regular basis and I have to say my carry rig and set up is nowhere near my idpa stuff. because after all its still a game... The last 2 sentences in your post summarize the point quite well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I think I'm going to go look for an IDPA match just so I can run my P7M13 and tweak the RO's when I go to slide lock and do a speed reload anyhow You'd be welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 No more complicated than USPSA.....just different. +1..... I'm happy that there's multiple games out there that present different shooting challenges.... Id actually prefer a 3rd option..one with idpa like stages and cover but with the rest of uspsa rules..lol. but i am sure im not the only one.. Go set one up --- another game that is. Develop the rules, think about the divisions, create a target, plan the match. I'll try anything once, more if I like it.... The idea there is that you'd do a tactical reload/reload with retention --- because you don't know that there won't be more than 18 required hits in real life....IOW, you might need the ammo down the road, so hang on to it..... The chances Id retain a mag in real life are ......hrmmm 0. yep thats it none..lol But in real life i carry 18+1 not 10 rounds so why not make it real carry to gun capacity ,,,,i kno cali kids cant have big boy guns... o well..lol..I carry on a regular basis and I have to say my carry rig and set up is nowhere near my idpa stuff. because after all its still a game... IDPA also originated during the federally mandated 10 round capacity limit time period. That probably influenced the decision.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GForceLizard Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 The call was correct. I have been called for that same thing several times because I still had one in the chamber. Someone else will have to provide the reasoning behind this rule. There was a discussion at our local club last night. One guy says if you rack the slide and eject that round there's no procedural. Other guy says you can't fix the procedural by racking the slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 The call was correct. I have been called for that same thing several times because I still had one in the chamber. Someone else will have to provide the reasoning behind this rule. There was a discussion at our local club last night. One guy says if you rack the slide and eject that round there's no procedural. Other guy says you can't fix the procedural by racking the slide. Here's what Robert Ray says: Question: It came to my attention that at a recent match a competitor dropped an empty magazine with a round remaining in the gun's chamber. After reloading a fresh magazine, he racked the slide, ejecting the chambered round and replacing it with one from the fresh magazine. The S.O. running the contestant gave him a P.E. for performing a slide lock reload when the gun was not completely empty (pg 42). The contestant protested and the M.D. overruled the penalty, stating that racking the slide and ejecting a round was the same as dropping the slide from slide lock and gave no competitive advantage. I disagree with that call and ask your opinion. Specifically, the question is this: If the contestant drops an empty magazine, and reloads with a full one while the gun still contains a live round in the chamber; should a P.E. be assessed if the contestant then racks the slide, ejecting the chambered round onto the ground and chambering one from the newly loaded magazine? If allowed, the practice can be utilized to pre-plan a reload point; for example, a CDP shooter is only firing 8 rounds, not 9, prior to reloading at "slide lock"; in effect being able to download his mag, or not, by one round by varying his "slide lock" reloading technique. (Come to think of it, if it could be shown to have been done intentionally, it might deserve a FTDR!) Answer: If the competitor drops a magazine while there is any ammunition in the gun, the competitor has effectively performed a speed reload. This is a procedural and he should be assessed 3 seconds. The fact that he went back and ejected the live round is immaterial unless he was clearing a jam. You can't "fix" a procedural. For instance, a CoF calls for tactical sequence on three targets. The competitor steps up and shoots two on the first target and one on the second target then remembers that it is tac-sequence. He then returns to the first target and shoots the required 1-1-2-1-1 in the proper order. I have seen this happen at clubs but it is not right. He should still get the procedural. In this case you brought up the competitor did not do an IDPA recognized reload. The only way the competitor gets out of the PE is if it was jam clearing. The SO should be able to tell the difference. Thank you, Robert Ray International Defensive Pistol Association Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibby Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 You can't fix a procedure. Once it's earned it's earned. Best thing to do is keep shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 You can't fix stupid! I was there last Saturday. PE, for doing exactly what I just told everyone not to do. Doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 Been dinged for this myself a few times. Once I got really hosed. Mag I was using failed to lock the slide back when the gun went dry - I dropped the mag and inserted a fresh one. You guessed it - 3 seconds more to my score. Thats a malfunction !!!! I would have argued that one until the end. The issue is not whether the slide locked or not, but whether the chamber is empty; insert mag, rack slide, and you're GTG. Insert mag, pull trigger, then rack slide? The latest interpretation of the rules says that as long as the depleted/spent mag is properly stowed before firing a shot you're OK, but it would likely take more than three seconds to retrieve the mag, stow it, and then shoot. A three-second PE is probably the best you can hope for if you don't know you're empty and the slide doesn't lock. Lots of guns don't lock back, some by design, so arguing malfunction might be a tough sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 If you rack the slide and no round is ejected.... no PE. kr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 Exactly. I go on alert when I see a slide down reload. If a round comes out, up goes the finger. Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 (edited) The Rule Book also states, on page 41, under Appendix Two - Approved IDPA Reloads: Malfunction Clearing Exception: When clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speedloader that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty. Having the slide fail to lock to the rear when the gun is empty is a malfunction. Having to pop that magazine out of the gun, insert a fresh mag and then rack the action to get a round into the chamber is rectifying that malfunction, thus no requirement to retain the empty magazine. Really in this scenario you're just doing the same thing you'd normally do with an empty gun in the IDPA emergency reload (pop out the empty mag in the gun, let it hit the ground and leave it there, insert a fresh mag into the gun) but with the extra time penalty of then having to rack the slide instead of simply thumbing a slide release. This is lot different than a time saving speed reload. A related example would be when the slide locks back with rounds still in the magazine. An SO tried to give me a PE for 'leaving a partially loaded mag behind' but I explained to him that I was clearing a malfunction and cited the same passage from the rule book above. Edited September 16, 2010 by Dragoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadus123 Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 It is a procedual if you have 1 in the gun I think the reason is that under stress you can't count and should shoot till slide lock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 I got a PE for this once. I thought I was being creative. I went to do a tac load, looked and realized my mag was empty so I just dropped it behind me instead of putting it in my back pocket. Still a penalty . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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