Is This Gun Handling Or Not?

[Skywalker]

"ad libidum"??? Sounds pornographic.... ;-)

Detlef,

it's time you see a god optometrist, I wrote "ad libitum", which in latin means as much as you like it (OK, I admit, it may still look a bit pornographic) .

Yes, it might be a question of feeling, but I still think this kind of behaviour, and the attitude driving it (sort of "I don't need to be aware of where my muzzle is pointing, it's an unloaded gun") should be discouraged.

[Singlestack]

"god optometrist"

[Vince Pinto]

He helps you find Jesus

[Carlos]

Vince wrote" "Bottom line: given our overriding emphasis on safety, conventional wisdom suggests that competitors go out of their way to ensure that they don't even remotely give the impression that their behaviour is unsafe."

Here here! We create safe areas with the intent that they be used. Why not use the safe area? In Area 8, we routinely help break down the stage we end on, thus calling for us to bag our guns on that stage rather than go to the safe area. Simple solution: we have the RO stand at the line, we show & get a clear gun, hammer down & bag it. Rules or not, why the need to "handle" a holstered gun? I don't see it. Do things right & leave the rules gaming to how you shoot a stage.

[Skywalker]

OK, "god" enlightened me during my nap, and now I'm ready to explain my concept.

The shotgun rulebook 2003 V3 says (section 5.1.2) that the shotgun shall be carried (when outside the case) in a vertical position; to me it means that the rulebook intended to specify a safe direction towards which the muzzle shall be pointed, no matter if the shotgun is unloaded.

At recent European Shotgun Championship, IPSC started issuing the use of "chamber flag indicators", stating that from 2004 the use of those flags will be mandatory. For those of you not accustomed to them, it's a plastic insert with a small flag protruding from the chamber, that provides a visual indicator that the chamber is empty and locks the action half open.

My guess is: what is the need of enforcing the carry of the shotgun in vertical position (i.e. muzzle pointed in a safe direction) if it is clearly unloaded and with the action half open?

If there is still a good reason for doing it this way (and I agree there is a valid safety consideration at the basis), why should handguns be treated differently?

I mean, I think it would be a good idea if the Handgun rulebook could clearly state which are the allowed conditions to carry and store handguns while on the range.

It is a sort of safe procedure that everybody should follow on the range, and it would be a nice cross-commonality with other rulebooks.

Besides it would stress the concept that this is an inherently safe sport to all bystanders: we usually give (pardon the confusion with other shooting sports) the wrong impression that we are "cowboys riding wild and free with guns"; by demonstrating we have coded procedures for safety, including how to carry a gun on the range could change this perspective.

[Stratochief]

So basically I can stick my pistol in some old junk hoster that's not attached to a belt or anything and carry it around all I want to? I'd like to see someone try it at a big match.

[dajarrel]

I know this has been beat to death, so here is my thought.

Unless you are at the line and the RO has told you to LAMR or is allowing you to bag after a stage is complete, your gun should not be handled, and by that I mean leave the security of your holster/belt combination on your hip, unless in a safe area.

Call me old fashioned, but thus far I have no bullet holes in me

FWIW

Dennis

[Vince Pinto]

So basically I can stick my pistol in some old junk hoster that's not attached to a belt or anything and carry it around all I want to?

To generally avoid the "junk holster" problem, the January 2004 Edition of the IPSC handgun rules states:

5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing: <snip>

5.2.7.4 A holster which does not completely prevent access to, or activation of, the trigger of the handgun while holstered.

[Flexmoney]

I'd rather not see muzzle.

[Nolan]

I'd rather not see muzzle.

Like Rhino and Detlef said, there is absolutely no difference in safety between holding my unloaded gun horizontally in a gun rug/bag or in my locked holster. The only physical difference is whether the crowd can tell if I've cleaned the bore lately. Of course in a CR holster they can't even tell that.

I guess it's sorta like the difference between seeing Rhino in a speedo thong or wearing a pair of overalls? Both are legal (in some states) one just gives most people the Willies!

[Vince Pinto]

Nolan,

If I can't sleep tonight, or if I have nightmares, I'm holding you personally responsible

[Flexmoney]

...there is absolutely no difference in safety between holding my unloaded gun horizontally in a gun rug/bag or in my locked holster. The only physical difference is whether the crowd can tell if I've cleaned the bore lately.

I'm not disagreeing...but, I'd still rather not see muzzle.

[rhino]

I guess it's sorta like the difference between seeing Rhino in a speedo thong or wearing a pair of overalls? Both are legal (in some states) one just gives most people the Willies!

Yeah, just thinking of me in a pair of overalls is a scary, scary thing!

[Skywalker]

Sorry for being slow-witted and/or hard-headed,

but I still don't understand why shall we have 2 different sets of rules on the same topic from the shotgun and handgun rulebooks.

The first one rules how a shotgun has to be carried on the range, virtually eliminating the possibility of looking into the muzzle of a gun, even if it is unloaded and safe, stressing the safety concept at its best.

The second allows a handgun to be manipulated and pointed everywhere provided it is unloaded and tucked into a holster detached from the competitor's body, implicitly saying "don't care, it's safe".

Can anybody clear this for me?

[Julien Boit]

I agree with skywalker.

We have rules and they have to be respected, especially those about safety.

I can't clearly see what's the interest of that holster allowing to remove to "locking portion"

I think that if a safety zone is unreachable (mud...) then shooters should ask for the RO to bag their gun under command downrange, just like carlos said.

Most RO will agree (I hope ).

[james h]

ok try this

rifles and shotguns should be carried vertically up or down as per rule book.

now try sitting down with a holster on and see if the barrel remains vertical.Or try a low apeture on the walk through and see how many people your pistol sweeps as you bend ,kneel, crouch or lie down.

As for walking around with a holster in your hand i do agree with Luca and Julien that its not ideal but before we criticise the rules can anybody actually write down a rule which deals with this that wont slow down matches with bagging ,unbagging all the time ? Those that write them might consider saying either wholly enclosed in a bag/box or worn properly as per the appendixes state . just a thought

james

[Vince Pinto]

Skywalker et al,

Don't get me wrong - I personally disapprove of people removing a "unitised" holstered gun from their belt, and walking around with it in their hands, so that the muzzle can point in all directions but, if we prohibit that action, surely we should also prohibit people bending over, or going prone during a walkthrough, where the muzzle of a holstered gun on the belt points uprange?

However if your only concern is a holstered gun in the hands, would this work (based on the January 2004 IPSC rulebook)?:

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or holster (see Rule 10.5.1).

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. If a holstered handgun is removed from the belt as a unit, the muzzle of the handgun (if visible) must not point at any person. Violation will incur a warning for the first occurrence but will be subject to Section 10.6 for subsequent occurrences in the same match.

If the above solves the problem, it's too late for inclusion in the 2004 Edition, but I can add it to my list and propose it for the next revision.

PS: Skywalker - I don't think you're being "testa dura"

[shred]

Since seeing the muzzle gives everybody the willies, how about a future rule something like "unless the shooter is under the direct control of an RO or in a safe area, the pistol must remain holstered and the holster attached to the shooter"??

[EricW]

Uncle Vinnie's version:

If a holstered handgun is removed from the belt as a unit, the muzzle of the handgun (if visible) must not point at any person. Violation will incur a warning for the first occurrence but will be subject to Section 10.6 for subsequent occurrences in the same match.

My version:

If a holstered handgun is removed from the belt as a unit, this action must be performed in safety area.  PERIOD.  The muzzle of the handgun (if visible) must not point at any person.  Violation will incur a warning for the first occurrence.  On the second occurrence, the competitor will have the walk the "Dreaded Tunnel of Wedgie" after which he/she will have to maintain the exposed portion of the underpants over his/her head while he/she cheerfully tapes and brasses for the other competitors during the remainder of the match.

[Vince Pinto]

Eric,

Dude, you've just been elected to the Rules Committee, and we're gonna have soooooooooooooo much fun next year

[rhino]

I ignore all of your silly rules, you rules creating people!

I always swap my match gun for my carry gun right before I "arrive" at the match in my truck.

[Skywalker]

Vince,

I think Shred has a point on this: my (and other forum regulars) primary concern is having somebody handling his/her gun outside of a safety area (which, BTW, is the designated area for handling an unloaded gun) without the direct supervision of a RO, thus ending up pointing the gun in unsafe directions.

If the rules could cover this (and, again, I like Shred's perspective: few words, clear, easily enforceable and covering all possible events) I think we would be happier/safer.

To better explain the concept, I'd like to elaborate on Shred's proposal as following:

Carry and storage - while on the range, all competitors are required to carry and/or store their handguns in a holster attached to the competitor's body or in an appropriate case. Handling of the gun - except when the shooter is preparing for the Course Of Fire, and/or under the direct control of a Range officer - is allowed only in Safety Areas (according to section 2.4).

Since section 2.4 already mentions casing and uncasing guns, I think this could be all we might need: you can handle your gun in a safety area, or on the deck when the RO allows you to make ready for the COF beginning, or whenever you are under the direct control of a RO (chrono, casing at the end of the COF , etc.). Nothing else.

And, thanks for your kind words, but I am really a slow-witted hard/headed engineer; at least this is what I'm told daily... both at work and home .

[Vince Pinto]

Skywalker,

Thanks for the input, but the "attached to the shooter" and "attached to the competitor's body" won't work unless you insist on surgery ....... ouch!

Wording such as "Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person, or in a gun case or gun bag." might better express your concept.

However, for the avoidance of doubt, please clarify how you (and others) feel about a competitor who wants to remove their whole belt, with the holster still attached and with the handgun inserted therein.

The other thing is how many competitors actually use rigs where you can remove the holster and gun as a unit? Are such rigs becoming more common?

[Skywalker]

Wording such as "Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person, or in a gun case or gun bag." might better express your concept.

I supposed that your bionic exoskeleton was already equipped with a holster hook, at least for lightsabers...

Ok, your suggestion is a better wording.

However, for the avoidance of doubt, please clarify how you (and others) feel about a competitor who wants to remove their whole belt, with the holster still attached and with the handgun inserted therein.

My feeling is that if you want to (safely) remove your gun/belt/pants and whatever you like ( ) from your holster/waist/body, you'd better do it in a safety area or under the direct control of a RO. No other gun hadling should be allowed on the range.

We have safety areas for handling a gun outside of the COF, have those lazy a@#§s walk there and use them!

The other thing is how many competitors actually use rigs where you can remove the holster and gun as a unit? Are such rigs becoming more common?

I don't think this should be important, because the gun handling allowance while on the range includes removable holsters, but we have seen it is not limited to that (e.g removing entire belt, holster and gun).

[Wakal]

Since we already know that a competitor may only load under the direct supervision of a RO under penalty of DQ and burning at the stake, the argument that a competitor might load a holstered off-body gun is moot and pointless, just as argument that a comeptitor might load a holstered (on-body) gun is moot and pointless. The crux of the issue, if I may, is that since a gun may be "safe" only if holstered, cased, or bagged, then can a holstered gun be "safe" if the holster and gun are off the competitor's body?

Safe on...unsafe off?

Most of the posts so far have been more to do with fear of being swept than anything else, and I agree...being swept by a "crouching tiger" sort of competitor is more acceptable than being swept by a "wave gun around while gun is in a silly little detached Limcat pseudoholster" sort of competitor.

In that light, how about:

Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or holster. If carried in holster, the holster must be affixed to the competitor's belt and worn in accordance with Rule 5.3.4.

Alex