ErikW Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 I'm admiring a competitor's new holster when he says, "You know what the best thing about this holster is?" With his strong hand on the holstered gun, he turns a knob that detaches the holster from its belt hanger, and places his holstered gun in his range bag. Is this gun handling in USPSA or IPSC? Is it up to local authorities? Another competitor finishes a stage, walks up to her range bag, and peels off her Velcro overbelt containing her holstered gun. Her hand never touches the gun. Is this gun handling in USPSA or IPSC? Is it up to local authorities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 I'm not entirely sure that I feel comfortable the #1 scenario because of the direct pistol handling it requires even if it is holstered. I think this pushes 10.3.3 a little. The second example is what I consider a safe move as you are really not handling the pistol if it is done right. BTW, wasn't that a much touted feature of the SafariLand Inner/Outer belt system when it was first introduced in the early nineties? The rules pertaining to (unsafe) gunhandling don't provide a strong lead here. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 I'd be inclined to say it's not "gun handling," but if the locals are uncomfortable with it, they should just tell the guy and he can avoid it in the future. When I shoot bowling pins, I routinely go to the line carrying my pistola in a holster in my hand. It's no more or less safe than having it in a rug or bag in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 It's gun handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 Scenario #1 would certainly give me pause however, scenario #2 is something that I’ve seen happen fairly often (I’ve even done it). I’m watching this thread with interest looking for a definitive answer, Erik what do YOU think? Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 When I did the RO class a couple weeks ago we discussed scenario #2. It is legal. Scenario #1 is tougher. The trigger is fully covered (or it is an illegal holster per 5.3.6.5) so technically the gun is still holstered. Taking a "dry grip" of a gun while still holstered is legal. However there are all those rules about where the muzzle of a holstered gun can and can't point. I dunno. It is probably legal but is riding that razor thin edge. I don't think I would do it. I would get a ruling from NROI and carry a copy of that ruling with me everywhere I went if I was going to use one of those holsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 If either of the examples is "gun handling," then walking around with your gun in a pistol rug has to be gun handling too as there is no substantive difference. We see that at matches all the time. As a matter of fact, I don't see how it really differs from carrying it in your range bag. No one worries about where the muzzle is pointed when the gun is in a rug or a bag. Maybe "out of sight; out of mind" is playing a role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 detaches the holster from its belt hanger, and places his holstered gun in his range bag. Come on now! Walk your lazy a$$ over to the Safe Area and bag it. walking around with your gun in a pistol rug has to be gun handling too as there is no substantive difference. WOW I have yet to see that one, but I say its far worse than handling a gun in a holster or handling a belt, with a holster containing a gun the trigger is securely coverd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 Hmm.. questions to ask yourself-- Could I put a magazine in the gun without opening something to get to it? Could I rack the slide or cock the hammer without opening someting to get to it? Seems to me if the answer is "yes" to either, it ain't bagged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 "Could I put a magazine in the gun without opening something to get to it? Could I rack the slide or cock the hammer without opening someting to get to it?" You can do that with the pistol holstered on your belt though also. I say it is not gun handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 You know, this reminds me of a similar thread where the competitors holster containing a loaded gun fell from the belt hanger. I cant find the thread. What did we decide there? It should be treated the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue edge Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 All of this is may not be gun handling,or it may be legal, but it is Dam$ RUDE!!!!!!!!! Unsportsman conduct might be the word. My 2 cents blue edge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Well you've obviously stated your opinion. Why do you consider it rude and unsportsman-like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue edge Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Just one persons thought, but it does not set a good example for new shooters. When people push rules to far or someplace a rule was never ment to be,good things usally don`t come of it. It`s not that hard or far to go to the safe area, and safty is what we promot! safty first! wright? This is allso like farting at the dinner table,it might feel good but it still stinks!! and thats why I think it is rude. What I say is not mint to be personal our sport is shooting not mud throing thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 "Could I put a magazine in the gun without opening something to get to it?Could I rack the slide or cock the hammer without opening someting to get to it?" You can do that with the pistol holstered on your belt though also. I say it is not gun handling. Um, that's the point. You are expected to be in full control of the pistol on your belt. Even to the extent that you can be DQed for doing those things. Could I take my detached-and-holstered pistol, hold it over a bag, unlock the holster to drop it in? "Does this bug you??? I'm not touching it.. " Can I take my detached-holstered pistol and run around the range pointing the exposed muzzle at people since I'm only holding the holster? "Does this bug you??? I'm not touching it.. " Hey, that gives me an idea.. next time I do a walkthrough, I'll turn on my dot, undo my holster and run through the stage holding the holster and sighting with the dot. No problem, right? Is this any different from popping one of those 'Glock Block' things behind the trigger of a Glock and then twirling it from a lanyard on the locking hole? "Does this bug you??? I'm not touching it.. " Bag it for real or keep it holstered on your hip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 What seems to be the problem with walking to the safety area before manipulating your firearm? I could *maybe* understand this behavior if the safe area was 600 yards away or unusable due to weather(i.e. a 2 ft deep mud pit). My problem with the detachable belt/holster gambit is that even though it meets the letter of the law, it violates the clear *intent* of the law which was to restrict willy nilly gun handling and maintain a cold range. My point is not to argue hypotheticals. My point is that if we let "trick" gear erode basic safety principles - pretty soon there won't be any. All it could take is ONE accident to shut down a range, or to start a nationwide media frenzy decrying the "dangers" of IPSC. (Don't laugh. Wait until the AWBan sunset rears it's ugly head next year. I guarantee there will be a no-holds barred media war on all things gun - possibly action shooters - being such prominent consumers of "banned" gear.) We can piss and moan about the rules all day long, but the fact is they're well thought out, they work, and people should obey them in the spirit in which they were developed. The safety rules in IPSC certainly can seem like Nanny State bureaucracy, but they do serve the collective good of the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Shred, Obviously if you go around pointing it at people it should not be allowed, and if something did that to me, I'd probably deck him. Fortulantly most people have more common sense than that and would at the very least keep the holster and weapon oriented in the safest position. I don't think it is unsafe if you use common sense. At the same time, I wouldn't want someone who this is their first match doing that around me. I still think it isn't gun handling. However, it is always best to err on the side of caution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Jake-- exactly.. It might be safe if done right, but given as there's better and safer-looking way for minimal more effort, I think we should do that instead (which brings me to another peeve: why don't more matches let shooters bag on the line at their last stage??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Hi folks, Under IPSC rules, a holster is considered to be a safety (and storage) device, and the new IPSC rules include: 5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or holster (see Rule 10.5.1). 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. -:so both of the actions described by Erik in the opening post would not be treated as "unsafe gun handling", but they most certainly do fit into the "I'm too damn lazy to go to the safety area" category of "Lack of Courtesy Offenses". And so does farting at the dinner table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 EricW, I think you wrote wise words. I'm 100% with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Hi folks, An afterthought. This issue is very similar to the prohibition against "handling" ammo in the safety area. We all know that holding loaded magazines, live rounds, dummy rounds and even empty cases in your hand while standing inside a safety area is a DQ offence, but what if a guy merely "touches" or "grips" (but doesn't remove) a loaded magazine on his belt while standing inside the boundaries of a safety area? That's not a DQ offence, and gripping or leaning on your pistol grip while listening to a stage briefing is not unsafe gun handling either (provided you don't lift the gun out of the "secured" position of your holster), however both examples highlight the very fine lines between "have a nice day" and "hit the showers". Ditto for the various other fine lines we've declared. Bottom line: given our overriding emphasis on safety, conventional wisdom suggests that competitors go out of their way to ensure that they don't even remotely give the impression that their behaviour is unsafe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Kimel , where are htese rules about where a holstered gun may not point ? or is this an IDPA/USPSA thing? 5.2.7.3 only applies to ths start of a COF and 10.5.6 only when holstereing james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Well, all in all, even if I have to agree with Vince on the fact thath the behaviour described by Erik Warren is not against the rules, I'd like to share my perspective. The main problem with handling the gun "holstered" in a removable holster lies in the fact that I wouldn't like to be "swept" by the gun during the holster removal/bagging procedure. At least, I suppose one of the main reasons why we have safety areas, is to insure that, whenever a handgun is not residing in a holster firmly attached to the competitor's body, it is pointed in a safe direction. Yeah, ok, the gun is not loaded and it is safe (holstered? I'd hardly say that), but I still feel quite nervous about the possibility of being "swept" in such cases. I think that this kind of behaviour should be strongly discouraged, both by the match organizers (gently but firmly inviting people to holster/bag guns in the dedicated safety areas), and by the rules (maybe specifiyng that, whenever a handgun is not holstered - i.e. firmly attached to the competitor's body - it can be removed from the holster under the direct command of a RO or in the safety areas). My opinion is that we shouldn't be allowing people to handle their guns "ad libitum" on the range, even if the guns are locked by the removable portion of a holster. Heck, whenever I finish a training session or a match I don't even touch my CCW issued gun: it lies in my bag until I leave the range! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 "ad libidum"??? Sounds pornographic.... ;-) IMHO, if the holster is a safe storage device in that the trigger is not exposed, then sweeping the crowd is no more problem than it is when you have your gun in a gun bag (only there noone can see you sweep the crowd...). Pulling the trigger is what makes a gun go bang. --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSCDRL Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 I seem to remember John Amidon making an official declaration (for USPSA) that this type of behavior is a no no in Front Sight some time back. Anyone else remember the column? I'll try to dig through my old copies of FS for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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