Jim Cirillo Video Tape

[Duane Thomas]

Back in 1992 I attended a multi-day class with Jim Cirillo, the famous former member of the old New York City Police Stakeout Unit. Jim was one of the few men in the modern era who actually had a claim to the title "master gunfigher". After he retired from the NYCPD, during which time he was involved in 17 different gunfights (at least according to his Paladin Press bio), and then after a subsequent career as a trainer for FLETC and US Customs, Jim began teaching the normal citizenry on an itinerant basis. It was a fairly awesome class, actually. Jim had immense presence and charisma, and many really great ideas, both for shooting techniques and for how to conduct the training itself.

Back then I had it in mind that I might do a video of Jim's training. I showed up at the class with a professional quality camera I rented, and in addition to shooting the class I videoed the hell out of it. I listened carefully to the instructions the rental people gave me on how to operate that camera, how to set it up so everything would always be in focus, how to pan, etc., and, if it's doesn't seem too modesty challenged to say, looking at the resulting footage, I'm a pretty darn good cameraman.

And my God, Jim could tell stories. A lot of the footage I have was taken during lunchtimes, when Jim would regale the class with stories of his days in the Stakeout Unit, and the gunfights in which he and other Unit members were involved. Brutal, bloody, achingly funny stuff told by a fantastic storyteller in that wonderful, heavy, New Yawk accent of his.

Anyway, the video never happened. I wanted to cut it myself and sell it to Paladin Press, they wanted me to send the raw footage to them so they could cut it, I wasn't willing to do that, then I got distracted by other things. I've still got, I think, six or seven video tapes sitting in my bedroom closet containing, as far as I know, the only decent footage every taken of Jim Cirillo's training, along with the notes I made years ago on how to cut it. Paladin eventually did do their own Jim Cirillo video but it's just Jim sitting in a lawn chair - no, I'm not joking - talking to the camera, and demonstrating techniques himself. Marty Hayes of the Firearms Academy of Seattle is in there a bit. But no students, no drills, none of what it was really like to train with Jim Cirillo. Apparently, talking to the folks at Paladin, that video was very successful for them but it's a pale shadow of what I could put together with the footage I have.

Jim died a few years ago in a car crash. Obviously there's not going to be anymore Jim Cirillo training footage, what I have here is all there's ever going to be. There's no doubt in my mind this footage could be edited into an absolutely killer video. I'd like to do that, and sell it. I'm unsure of the legalities of selling a video featuring a dead trainer. I'd need to find out about that. Also, there's the technical question of the actual editing process. I did have one video edited years ago. I know I'd have to find someone who has a toaster and the skill to use it. Of course, back when I did this before, it was a video to video toaster. I can only imagine that today it's digital to digital. But surely there must be some sort of VHS to DVD capability.

Then of course there's how to sell it. Obviously I want to set up a website and sell it online. But do I want to do the "send out DVDs through the mail" approach, or make it paid download? I don't know.

Any advice?

[atbarr]

IMHO, it would be way to large for a download. This sounds like a great idea, if you can work out the legal problems.

Good Luck,

A.T.

P.S. A lot of people still have dial up.

[cnote]

I've taken his class twice in 04 an 05 as there were rumors that he would stop teaching, and loved them both. He does have a son that works for customs and was his assistant. Might want to clear it with the family prior to really diving in.

just a thought

[benos]

I've taken his class twice in 04 an 05 as there were rumors that he would stop teaching, and loved them both. He does have a son that works for customs and was his assistant. Might want to clear it with the family prior to really diving in.

+1.

And in the FYI department, the learning curve on a modern day video editing app, like Final Cut Pro for example, is MASSIVE! Makes Photoshop look like a breeze.

be

[BritinUSA]

I think you would need to contact the executor of his estate. That should be a matter of public record. Once you have that then you can contact them about getting permission for it.

[Duane Thomas]

Jim mentioned his son, Jim Jr. to me. Also I know that Jim eventually married his sweetheart from earlier in his life, after both their former spouses had died. I'm not sure if there's a surviving Mrs. Cirillo, or if she was in the car with Jim at the time. Given that this DVD would be something in the sense of a memorial to Jim, who was one of the world's great guys (really, the only man I ever knew who, even I was 40, still called me "kid"), I'd definitely want the family's blessing.

[Duane Thomas]

And in the FYI department, the learning curve on a modern day video editing app, like Final Cut Pro for example, is MASSIVE! Makes Photoshop look like a breeze.

Well, I always knew that do-it-yourself was never an option.

[Duane Thomas]

One reason I posted the question here was the number of legal minds we have posting - gun nuts, we are everywhere - thus to get their guidance in the matter.

[mlmiller1]

I believe, according to the news articles I can find, he was the only one to die in the accident. The newspaper quoted his "companion of 9 years, Violet Jimenez" so I'm guessing she is still around or was a couple years ago.

Sounds like an interesting project. Be sure no matter what you do, you keep copies of all the footage for yourself. Before editing.

MLM

[DougCarden]

Get the family's blessing, and then put me in line for the first copy! I treasure my class with Jim, and do miss the Lion!

DougC

[lynn jones]

unrelated to your project, one quick question. was he the new york cop that said when asked "why he survived so many shoot outs?" he said "because my front sight has eleven serations?"

lynn

Edited October 20, 2009 by lynn jones

[Duane Thomas]

I have no idea, but it sounds like something Jim would say. He did comment many times that during his first gun battle he saw the front sight on his Model 10 so clearly he could count the serrations.

[kevin c]

I also took Jim's course. He was as colorful and as interesting as has been described.

Another potential problem that I hate to bring up, but should. If I were a student in a class being taped by another student for his own personal reference and use, I'd have no problem with my being recorded (AAMOF, I'd probably ask if I could pay for my own copy). I'm not so sure, though, that others in a private class would consent to being taped for broadcast or commercial purposes without their foreknowlege and agreement, or at least after the fact written consent.

I agree, a good lawyer should be able to say what's OK.

Edited October 20, 2009 by kevin c

[wide45]

We had Jim come to Canandaigua to teach a class, back in the mid '90's. At that time he was working on making a video, and with our permission brought in a professional and had some of the class videotaped. We were supplied with some of the Hornady Vector tracer ammo, which worked great for the drills, and should have made excellent footage.

We were much interested in seeing the final product, but never heard it was released.

So, there is videotape of him teaching, out there somewhere. It might be worth trying to track down.

[rgkeller]

You need to make a deal with his estate.

Contact his heir(s)

Mr. Cirillo had a son, Jim Jr, and a daughter, Marge.

Edited October 20, 2009 by rgkeller

[Nemo]

Contact the Scouttens. They do a lot of editing for their TV shows.

[G-ManBart]

I have no idea, but it sounds like something Jim would say. He did comment many times that during his first gun battle he saw the front sight on his Model 10 so clearly he could count the serrations.

Which just happened to take place on his very first stakeout with the unit!

[Cardinal]

Mr. Thomas

The legalities of this is for someone else to answer, but wanted to comment on the technical aspects.

Its possible to buy the equipment to record the VHS tapes over to DVDs, but in this case its probably better to hire a company to that part. Also for that part you should probably consider which film editing software is going to be used and which file format it prefers. That so you could get the company to save the converted VHS tapes in the format used by the software. Otherwise the DVDs will have to be converted back to a format for editing.

Regarding editing. You CAN do it yourself if you have the time. I have a friend who took footage from his safari in Namibia and made a commercial hunting film out of it. Actually, I think it was his son who did the most of the editing (and he is still a teenager), but when they started they didn't know anything about editing. They used Adobe Premiere Pro CS, which is professional software and cost about $700 at Link to product at Amazon. They had some help from an experienced in the beginning but they got it done. Editing was very time consuming though. Would probably go faster now with more experience.

I've also played with Premier, but will not claim to "know" it yet.

The other option is of course to hire someone professional to do it but that will probably cost more (have no idea on the costs).

Do you think this will be the only video you want to/will be making? if not, then doing it yourself might make more sense from a financial point view.

(also you could use the same software/knowledge to edit holiday movies which might make the wife/girlfriend happy! (build up some goodwill for the next firearms purchase) )

[cyclone336]

I am no expert in copyright law, but I am a third year law student who has taken a class in intellectual property law in general. While these are not great credentials, I will take a stab at the problem anyway.

After reading the initial post, it is difficult to determine if Mr. Cirillo (or his estate per 17 U.S.C. 201(d)(1) as you can read here: http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/201.html) has any copyright interest in your video footage. According to US Copyright Act,

"[c]opyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories: ...(6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works...” per 17 U.S.C. 102 (as you can read here: http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/102.html).

It is important to note the portion of the statute requiring “fixed in any tangible medium of expression”. As the above referenced website explains, the “fixation requirement” means that the orator of an improvisational speech has no copyright interest. (as you can read here: http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/unprotected.html). To the contrary, you did create an original work of authorship, fixed in a tangible medium, that medium being a motion picture. Thereby, you may have the copyright here independent of anyone else.

There is another possibility, however, which is that if Mr. Cirillo wrote down or otherwise recorded his training program before you did, then he (or his estate) would have copyright in his performance. That would mean you would just be making a derivative work of the prior copyright per 17 U.S.C. 106A (as you can read here: http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/106A.html#(a)). This would constitute copyright infringement per 17 U.S.C. 501 (as you can read here: http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/501.html). The consequence of such a scenario may be that, if Mr. Cirillo assigned his copyright to a third party or a third party recorded it to begin with, you may have to go to the third party to get permission (read “third party” to possibly implicate Paladin Press).

Also, PM sent. Good luck.

Edited November 3, 2009 by cyclone336

[al503]

Hypothetically, I would try to find any books, videos or anything that might contain the same or similar material you have, that has been previously copyrighted. If there is nothing, then you should be good to go. If there is, then you have several options.

1. get permission from the copyright holder to use the material,

2. You (and your attorney) may want to determine if the fair use doctrine will permit you to use some or all of the previously copyrighted material without permission, or

3. choose not to include the copyrighted material.

No real issue that I can see with the family unless they own the copyright(s). What many have alluded to about getting permission from the family has to do with appropriation of one's likeness (or that it might just be the right thing to do, of course). However, if memory serves me, this can only be invoked by the person who's likeness is being 'appropriated.' When that person passes, so does this 'protection.' I don't believe the family or estate can bring a suit based on this. My memory isn't what it used to be so take this with a grain of salt. I could be way off base.

With all that said, the best advice you're going to get is to speak with an attorney familiar with the laws of your state.

[cyclone336]

No real issue that I can see with the family unless they own the copyright(s). What many have alluded to about getting permission from the family has to do with appropriation of one's likeness (or that it might just be the right thing to do, of course).

I disagree. Copyright can last beyond the life of the author (for example, 70 years after death if the work was created on or after Jan 1, 1979 per 17 U.S.C. 302 - see http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/302.html ). Futhermore, U.S.C. 201(d)(1) states: "The ownership of a copyright may be transferred in whole or in part by any means of conveyance or by operation of law, and may be bequeathed by will or pass as personal property by the applicable laws of intestate succession." (see http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/201.html ) Therefore, it is possible that the family owns the copyright.

But I wholly agree with al503 in that you should seek actual legal counsel on this matter.

[al503]

No real issue that I can see with the family unless they own the copyright(s). What many have alluded to about getting permission from the family has to do with appropriation of one's likeness (or that it might just be the right thing to do, of course).

I disagree. Copyright can last beyond the life of the author (for example, 70 years after death if the work was created on or after Jan 1, 1979 per 17 U.S.C. 302 - see http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/302.html ). Futhermore, U.S.C. 201(d)(1) states: "The ownership of a copyright may be transferred in whole or in part by any means of conveyance or by operation of law, and may be bequeathed by will or pass as personal property by the applicable laws of intestate succession." (see http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/201.html ) Therefore, it is possible that the family owns the copyright.

But I wholly agree with al503 in that you should seek actual legal counsel on this matter.

i don't think we're disagreeing at all. The protection afforded by the appropriation runs with the person. I didn't mention anything about copyrights expiring.

[kurtm]

I have no guidence about the legal side of what you are talking about, but I do know that Paladin Press has quite a bit more footage than what their video shows, back in 92 they used our range to shoot a lot of the video, as it was an indoor range and it was Colorado in winter. At the time I was running the High Plains Firearms Institiute and while the footage never made it to the Paladin video, there was quit a bit. I still have some of it myself, which was all I ever got out of the deal. KurtM

[Sam]

Duane, I can't comment on the legal side. But, I will make a comment about the effort it takes to accomplish things in general. Much of the law that governs us is directed toward property ownership and compensation. The old saw about possession being 9/10ths of the law comes to mind. Often, the road is blocked by legalities and a tangle of red tape. This is precisely where many projects "lose the name of action".

I am a devoted capitalist. (Actually a bit of a Guerrilla Capitalist, the scariest kind. ) But, I don't see money as a primary motive for action. If I did, I'd just go into central banking and create my own, out of thin air.

Sometimes the resolution of a project cannot be accomplished while insuring enough net income to cover the expense and labor of the project. At that realization, the effort is often abandoned as being "unprofitable". Sometimes a project is worth completing, simply because it is something I want to do. In other words, the "profit" isn't monetary. Enter the case of Mr. Cirillo's footage. If it can't be done at a monetary profit, make a conscious personal evaluation to decide if it is worth doing for the preservation of the knowledge, as a tribute to the man, or as a personal study.

Maybe there would be others who would grant permission for something of that nature, with profits going to a favorite charity. I don't know if you will decide to do it or not. But, if you do it, I just know it will be excellent. -sam

[Duane Thomas]

Update: I emailed Mas Ayoob asking if he had a phone # or email address for Jim Cirillo, Jr. He said, "I don't, but I know Marty Hayes does." Emailed Marty, he gave me Jim Jr.'s email address. I sent him an email, haven't heard back, it's been several weeks now. At this point I don't know what else to do. Maybe talk to a lawyer friend of mine, learn how to find out who is the executor of the estate and contact them.