Unsportsman like conduct

[Chuck Anderson]

Strick, read the WSB again. How many shots are required with each can in the final position. Only one, the last shot fired. That is the only shot that was fired while out of compliance with the WSB. A procedural penalty per shot fired WAS assessed. There just was only one shot fired out of compliance.

[jasmap]

10.2.2 also uses the words "may be assessed" and not shall or will.

Edited October 10, 2009 by jasmap

[vluc]

"MAY", not "SHALL". makes a lot of difference.

now I wished I would have shot the match....

[racerba]

...is that under the rules by skipping or ignoring the WSB ...

The WSB was not ignored, nor was it skipped. The competitors received the penalties as described in the WSB. If a shooter did bot shoot at a target, for whatever reason, should that competitor be QDed for unsportsmanlike conduct? (because the competitor "ignored" the WSB of "Shoot ALL targets as visible") - that's the question that you originally ask.

[XRe]

Oy.

Legal stage, properly penalized, nice choices available. What's not to like?

Too bad you weren't at Area 4, Troy. You could have had an interesting discussion with the match staff about what you mean by "properly penalized" with regards to 10.2.2

Yes, folks, you can apparently read 10.2.2 to mean that the shooter is penalized one procedural per every shot fired (in the entire course of fire) if you think you want to. From my discussions with staff member, and other shooter's discussions with more than one staff member, 10.2.2 is the equivalent of IDPA's Failure To Do Right, if the match staff regards it as such. (actually, that would make it more penal than FTDR - FTDR doesn't give you a zero score, just a really bad score).

The stage in question was Stage 12. The competitor was required to carry a briefcase from a table in front to one of two tables in back. The course description reads "Briefcase must be placed on either downrange table prior to last shot being fired." If you didn't move the briefcase at all, you were going to be assessed 28 procedural penalties. If you moved the briefcase, but it fell off the downrange table you deposited it on, you would be assessed one procedural penalty. The match staff determined that they would consider failure to move the briefcase as a "significant advantage" for the entire course of fire, rather than the interpretation above in this thread.

[mactiger]

Oy.

Legal stage, properly penalized, nice choices available. What's not to like?

Too bad you weren't at Area 4, Troy. You could have had an interesting discussion with the match staff about what you mean by "properly penalized" with regards to 10.2.2

Yes, folks, you can apparently read 10.2.2 to mean that the shooter is penalized one procedural per every shot fired (in the entire course of fire) if you think you want to. From my discussions with staff member, and other shooter's discussions with more than one staff member, 10.2.2 is the equivalent of IDPA's Failure To Do Right, if the match staff regards it as such. (actually, that would make it more penal than FTDR - FTDR doesn't give you a zero score, just a really bad score).

The stage in question was Stage 12. The competitor was required to carry a briefcase from a table in front to one of two tables in back. The course description reads "Briefcase must be placed on either downrange table prior to last shot being fired." If you didn't move the briefcase at all, you were going to be assessed 28 procedural penalties. If you moved the briefcase, but it fell off the downrange table you deposited it on, you would be assessed one procedural penalty. The match staff determined that they would consider failure to move the briefcase as a "significant advantage" for the entire course of fire, rather than the interpretation above in this thread.

Yikes!

[Strick]

Too bad you weren't at Area 4, Troy. You could have had an interesting discussion with the match staff about what you mean by "properly penalized" with regards to 10.2.2

Yes, folks, you can apparently read 10.2.2 to mean that the shooter is penalized one procedural per every shot fired (in the entire course of fire) if you think you want to. From my discussions with staff member, and other shooter's discussions with more than one staff member, 10.2.2 is the equivalent of IDPA's Failure To Do Right, if the match staff regards it as such. (actually, that would make it more penal than FTDR - FTDR doesn't give you a zero score, just a really bad score).

The stage in question was Stage 12. The competitor was required to carry a briefcase from a table in front to one of two tables in back. The course description reads "Briefcase must be placed on either downrange table prior to last shot being fired." If you didn't move the briefcase at all, you were going to be assessed 28 procedural penalties. If you moved the briefcase, but it fell off the downrange table you deposited it on, you would be assessed one procedural penalty. The match staff determined that they would consider failure to move the briefcase as a "significant advantage" for the entire course of fire, rather than the interpretation above in this thread.

Sounds vaguely familiar...............could be because that is exactly what I was trying to say how the rule 10.2.2 could be applied if you use words like "must" and lay out a specific procedure in the WSB.

[Flexmoney]

Yes, folks, you can apparently read 10.2.2 to mean that the shooter is penalized one procedural per every shot fired (in the entire course of fire) if you think you want to. From my discussions with staff member, and other shooter's discussions with more than one staff member, 10.2.2 is the equivalent of IDPA's Failure To Do Right, if the match staff regards it as such. (actually, that would make it more penal than FTDR - FTDR doesn't give you a zero score, just a really bad score).

Double yikes.

I was going to make that correlation to IDPA's FTDR earlier...but, I didn't think that was anything but being overly rhetorical.

[XRe]

I was going to make that correlation to IDPA's FTDR earlier...but, I didn't think that was anything but being overly rhetorical.

Like any other non-specific rule, the interpretation is left up to the goals and agenda of the person doing the interpretation.... If a rhetorical argument could be made, so could a non-rhetorical one. The competitors aren't the only ones to be able to "game" the rules, especially in the vacuum of a major match that's already underway....

[ima45dv8]

Make that 28 yikes.

[Strick]

Like any other non-specific rule, the interpretation is left up to the goals and agenda of the person doing the interpretation.... If a rhetorical argument could be made, so could a non-rhetorical one. The competitors aren't the only ones to be able to "game" the rules, especially in the vacuum of a major match that's already underway....

That kinda gets to the point that I was making when I asked when does that part of the rule apply and when it doesn't.

[Chuck Anderson]

Kind of scary when folks at a match like an Area championship don't know how to properly apply the rules. Was this run up through the RM or just RO's? There is no way this is a legal ruling under 10.2.2. The description you give is more like they designated it a forbidden action.

[ChuckS]

This is getting real interesting! From the WSB:

"Shooter must carry cans from table to table. Can on Table

A must be carried to, placed on, and remain on Table B.

Then, can on Table B, must be carried to, placed on, and

remain on Table C…before the last shot is fired."

Ok, we are saying 28 penalties. The procedural infraction does not occur until the shooter takes the last shot with the can(s) not on the correct table(s). Is it possible to penalize on shots taken PRIOR to the actual occurance of the procedural?

Say you have a 16 round stage with a mandatory reload in the middle (after 8 rounds). If I do not do the reload, I can get either 1 or 8 procedural penalties but I don't think the rules support 16, or do they?

Later,

Chuck

[Strick]

Ok, we are saying 28 penalties. The procedural infraction does not occur until the shooter takes the last shot with the can(s) not on the correct table(s). Is it possible to penalize on shots taken PRIOR to the actual occurance of the procedural?

Later,

Chuck

My take is that the penalty is not being applied to the act of the actual shots but to shooting the COF outside the procedures outlined in the WSB. In doing so it is deemed that you gained an "significant advantage" so the remedy is to add a penalty to the required number of shots.

[Singlestack]

Say you have a 16 round stage with a mandatory reload in the middle (after 8 rounds). If I do not do the reload, I can get either 1 or 8 procedural penalties but I don't think the rules support 16, or do they?

Later,

Chuck

One per shot after the mandatory mag change.

10.2.4

[ChuckS]

Say you have a 16 round stage with a mandatory reload in the middle (after 8 rounds). If I do not do the reload, I can get either 1 or 8 procedural penalties but I don't think the rules support 16, or do they?

Later,

Chuck

One per shot after the mandatory mag change.

10.2.4

Gotcha. Let me change my example to a Level-I match where you are to engage 4 targets from box A and 4 from box B. Box B is by a real low port set up by some real short guys (this would never happen in real life ). Being 6' 4", I decide to take the last four targets from somewhere else than box B. Again, I may get 1 or I may get 8, but I don't think I could get 16.

Edited October 12, 2009 by ChuckS

[ChuckS]

Ok, we are saying 28 penalties. The procedural infraction does not occur until the shooter takes the last shot with the can(s) not on the correct table(s). Is it possible to penalize on shots taken PRIOR to the actual occurance of the procedural?

Later,

Chuck

My take is that the penalty is not being applied to the act of the actual shots but to shooting the COF outside the procedures outlined in the WSB. In doing so it is deemed that you gained an "significant advantage" so the remedy is to add a penalty to the required number of shots.

I dunno. The way I see it is that I have not committed a procedural until I take shot #28.

[Strick]

Gotcha. Let me change my example to a Level-I match where you are to engage 4 targets from box A and 4 from box B. Box B is by a real low port set up by some real short guys (this would never happen in real life ). Being 6' 4", I decide to take the last four targets from somewhere else than port B. Again, I may get 1 or I may get 8, but I don't think I could get 16.

The difference is that in the case of the cans or briefcase the WSB does not stipulate when to move the cans just that they have to be moved before the last shot. If you are free to move them when ever you want then how would the RO know which shots to apply the penalty to?

[Chuck Anderson]

Ok, we are saying 28 penalties. The procedural infraction does not occur until the shooter takes the last shot with the can(s) not on the correct table(s). Is it possible to penalize on shots taken PRIOR to the actual occurance of the procedural?

Later,

Chuck

My take is that the penalty is not being applied to the act of the actual shots but to shooting the COF outside the procedures outlined in the WSB. In doing so it is deemed that you gained an "significant advantage" so the remedy is to add a penalty to the required number of shots.

The problem is your "take" isn't supported by the rules. You can't give somebody a procedural for doing something that there is no prohibition against. Take the stage you're so worked up about in Ohio. If a shooter shoots all the stage except the last popper, then runs back and puts the cans in the appropriate position, then fires the last shot. So, by the stage description, they can shoot all the targets, but one round without incurrnig any kind of procedural. The last shot is the only one that is subject to procedural. If they had said before the last two shot are fired it would have been 4 (2 each per shot because of 2 cans). There is not a rule in USPSA saying that if the stage designer leaves a hole, whether intentional or not, that we're not allowed to drive a truck through it.

[ChuckS]

Gotcha. Let me change my example to a Level-I match where you are to engage 4 targets from box A and 4 from box B. Box B is by a real low port set up by some real short guys (this would never happen in real life ). Being 6' 4", I decide to take the last four targets from somewhere else than port B. Again, I may get 1 or I may get 8, but I don't think I could get 16.

The difference is that in the case of the cans or briefcase the WSB does not stipulate when to move the cans just that they have to be moved before the last shot. If you are free to move them when ever you want then how would the RO know which shots to apply the penalty to?

I rest my case

[Chuck Anderson]

Gotcha. Let me change my example to a Level-I match where you are to engage 4 targets from box A and 4 from box B. Box B is by a real low port set up by some real short guys (this would never happen in real life ). Being 6' 4", I decide to take the last four targets from somewhere else than port B. Again, I may get 1 or I may get 8, but I don't think I could get 16.

The difference is that in the case of the cans or briefcase the WSB does not stipulate when to move the cans just that they have to be moved before the last shot. If you are free to move them when ever you want then how would the RO know which shots to apply the penalty to?

Because the only time they have to be in a specific position is before the last shot. That is the only one the shooter can be at fault on.

[Strick]

Ok, we are saying 28 penalties. The procedural infraction does not occur until the shooter takes the last shot with the can(s) not on the correct table(s). Is it possible to penalize on shots taken PRIOR to the actual occurance of the procedural?

Later,

Chuck

My take is that the penalty is not being applied to the act of the actual shots but to shooting the COF outside the procedures outlined in the WSB. In doing so it is deemed that you gained an "significant advantage" so the remedy is to add a penalty to the required number of shots.

I dunno. The way I see it is that I have not committed a procedural until I take shot #28.

You are right, you have not violated teh WSB until the last shot is fired. One it is fired you have now not followed the WSB.

[Strick]

Gotcha. Let me change my example to a Level-I match where you are to engage 4 targets from box A and 4 from box B. Box B is by a real low port set up by some real short guys (this would never happen in real life ). Being 6' 4", I decide to take the last four targets from somewhere else than port B. Again, I may get 1 or I may get 8, but I don't think I could get 16.

The difference is that in the case of the cans or briefcase the WSB does not stipulate when to move the cans just that they have to be moved before the last shot. If you are free to move them when ever you want then how would the RO know which shots to apply the penalty to?

Because the only time they have to be in a specific position is before the last shot. That is the only one the shooter can be at fault on.

I am not hung up on any particular stage just (couldn't care less about the match in OH) the fact that some here say that if you know the rules then you can do what you want eventhough the rules don't support it.

You seem to be hung up on applying a penalty to the shots fired when the penalty is and should be applied to the entire COF since the shooter gained an advantage by skipping things they "MUST" do according to the WSB. I am not sure how much clearer the rulebook needs to be.

[Chuck Anderson]

Apparently it needs to be a bit clearer. 10.2.2 only applies to shots fired while faulting. For example a fault line where you're leaning out. If you fire 3 shots at a 4 targets while faulting the line and you gained a significant advantage you get three pentalties, one per shot fired. Not a procedural for every shot in the stage. You don't go back and assess a penalty for every target in the stage or even in that array. You only get penalized while faulting. You're right I am hung up on only applying per shot penalties when a shot is fired.

No one has said if you know the rule book you can ignore it and do whatever you want. What people said was if you know the rule book and know that 10.2.2 only applies to shots fired while faulting, the part you seem to be missing, then there might be a reward to skipping part of the WSB, a reward that will have consequences, but might still be worth it.

[Flexmoney]

If I can take you back to the Ohio stage...

As I mentioned earlier, there was no shooting tied to moving the cans. Moving the cans was the procedure(s). If you did the procedure, then no penalty. If you did not do the procedure, then one penalty per occurrence. Pretty simple.

There was no requirement to take ANY shots while holding the cans (and, I believe there we people that did move the cans that did not do any one handed shooting...yet another choice).