MarkCO Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Kind of a compound questioning here. First, do you carefully look at the classifier set-up before you shoot it, or after you shoot it or do you just assume it is correct? Next, if you find one incorrect, before you shoot it or afterwards, what do you do about it? If you have done something about an improperly set-up classifier, how did that process work out? Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) The net effect is that it's just another stage, not a classifier. If no one has shot, then it can be corrected so it can be used as intended. For 3 clubs in my area, I am the one you would be trusting to do it correctly, however... I was setting up a 3 target classifier a while back with center target long, left target medium and right target close, and got left and right reversed, but I noticed when double checking against the diagram and made the correction during setup. A second set of eyes during layout/setup is never a bad idea! Just curious, what was the nature of the error you saw? Layout dimensions, target presentation, other? Edited September 28, 2009 by NMBOpen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I have seen it a couple of times at local matches and all we have done in the past is not use that stage as a classifier, it still counts as a COF for the match but not a classifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 This is a very dynamic scenario. I have had to deal with this on a couple of occasions. My reaction and the subsequent results varied all over your poll. I have seen classifiers set up wrong and the portions incorrect affected how it was shot. I identified these to the club and had it corrected. In one case everyone who shot before the error was identified reshot it after the correction. There are other occasions that the error really isn't going to affect the results. Ya, I know this is going to set off some of the hard-core OCD Rule guys around here. Sorry, but some things are just not enough for me to bring up. A target placed 4" or 5" too high isn't going to be enough for me to care about. An array at 42 yds instead of 40yds isn't enough either. 45 yds, ya, I'll point it out, but I'm not going to get too upset about it. 50 yds? Whoa, time to throw the BS flag in the air. No shoot at the A zone instead of the C zone, definate BS flag violation. NS is off a 1/4", I'll point it out, but not get upset over it. Hell, If I needed the 1/4" I didn't do my part anyway. Array's set up incorrectly, saying something to the club. Having been an MD, RM, RO etc, I have walked the stages before a match and found errors. I've also had other club's MD/ RM's find errors or problems that I missed. We point them out to each other. Does it go past the club level? It's never had to. A glaring error has always been corrected if I found it. I'm usually asked to correct it for them, and do so. 2007 Mile-Hi, the classifier stage had issues. The wind kept knocking down the popper, and we couldn't set it soft enough to be knocked over by 9mm minor ammo. We shot it as a normal stage instead of submitting it as a classifier. Lots of responses to how to handle this based on the circumstances. I trust the MD's and RM's here to do the right thing. I don't worry about this at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Just curious, what was the nature of the error you saw? The layout was incorrect...I'll post on it with a better description once I see what the result will be. The results of the poll are actually very interesting so far. Thanks to all for the responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h2osport Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) Have not seen this yet, so I cannot vote(3rd question). I do not get out a tape measure and go over the course of fire, but I will usually check the stages out online a week or so before the match. Then check the stage description before shooting the stage. I would think our club would either fix it if it had not been shot, or run it as a non classifier stage if it had been shot. Randy Edited September 28, 2009 by h2osport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I've seen and shot most of the classifiers. I can usually eyeball them prior to the match and know whether or not something's amiss. If the classifier is set up incorrectly it should not be submitted, but can be used a scoring stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 We have a match director or AMD check the set-up after it's built, and it's usually built by either the MD or an AMD..... We instituted that policy after discovering that one was set wrong in the middle of the match. We didn't submit those results to USPSA.... I was one of a group of people who spotted an incorrectly set classifier in the middle of a match once. We notified the MD, and it was simply kept as a stage -- results not reported... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1bigshooter Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Absolutely helps to have another set of eyes in your club that looks for this kind of stuff. If that individual is OCD about it - you never have problems! (not that I've seen that.......) All responses above are right on - fix it before the match, fix it and reshoot all who have shot, or use it as a stage and not a classifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) When I have encountered this before everyone had to reshoot the stage. One classifier was set up wrong with incorrect poppers, that was reported and the classifier was deleted from everyone's list. Edited September 30, 2009 by Shawn Knight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 As the MD of the club, I ask one of my more anal retentive club members to set it up and then I check it before the match starts. So far, we have been okay. I did learn the hard way about classifiers that are wrong. I got bumped to "B" several years ago (well before I should have been in "B") due to the wrong classifier being sent in to USPSA. The one we actually shot had a much higher HF than the one that was posted- so my percentage on that one was 20% better than it should have been. At the time, I didn't care, since I was hoping to make it to "B" anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) deleted Edited October 1, 2009 by Tman33_99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 The club can still remove all of those scores too. It just depends on your club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 There was a case a while back where we'd accidentally shot a wrongly-setup classifier. We told Sedro and they decided the change wasn't significant enough and entered the scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 After much searching and no answers, can anyone tell me just how close is close enough when it comes to setting up a classifier? When I set them up for our club I try to get it down to less than half an inch from the diagrams if not closer. Joe W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I strive for within an inch, when it comes to measurements such as distance from a box or distance between targets..... I strive for perfection when it comes to the placement of no-shoots or hard cover.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf219 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I strive for within an inch, when it comes to measurements such as distance from a box or distance between targets.....I strive for perfection when it comes to the placement of no-shoots or hard cover.... Unless the wind is blowing then we could be talking about several inches! Yes Im opening up another can of worms Nik! LOL! Well when we live in a perfect world then Ill rest. Till then we can still use our silly acronym's to get by, LOL! H! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I strive for within an inch, when it comes to measurements such as distance from a box or distance between targets.....I strive for perfection when it comes to the placement of no-shoots or hard cover.... Sounds like what I do. Target/shoot box placement down to well under an inch and the targets/hard cover to the letter of the diagram. Joe W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgood Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I'm usually there early to help set up. I can look at the description just like the next guy and see that what we're doing is what's described. I'm also generally the least experienced guy there at setup time. So I rely heavily on the other guys to know what they're doing. But if I see something I believe is wrong, I will point it out and won't shut up about it until either it's fixed or someone convinces me it's correct. Target/shoot box placement down to well under an inch and the targets/hard cover to the letter of the diagram. That's about what we do. On most stages, someone just steps off distances. But on classifiers, the tape measure comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) Here is a little update on this topic now that I have heard from the Area Director. While the specific details of the issues in the case that prompted my questions are irrelevant, the information I have learned may help others in the future. Apparently USPSA trusts the club to set the classifier up correctly and in most cases the only way the scores will not be entered is if they are not submitted or the club president requests the scores be removed. Hopefully the proper lessons have been learned by the involved club. The lesson to shooters and club Presidents alike should be to carefully check the classifier BEFORE anyone has shot it and if it needs fixing, do it. Based on some of the responses and my own experiences, most clubs take the classifier set-up dimensions seriously and have a system to check for accuracy, but some others don't. Thanks for all of the input. Edited November 13, 2009 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I have always brought it to the MD's attention and it was always corrected. I'm more concerned with the club where the classifier is one of the few USPSA legal stages in the match. That's harder to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 How much do you think the targets were off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt2ace Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 As the MD of the club, I ask one of my more anal retentive club members to set it up and then I check it before the match starts. So far, we have been okay. I did learn the hard way about classifiers that are wrong. I got bumped to "B" several years ago (well before I should have been in "B") due to the wrong classifier being sent in to USPSA. The one we actually shot had a much higher HF than the one that was posted- so my percentage on that one was 20% better than it should have been. At the time, I didn't care, since I was hoping to make it to "B" anyway. +1 I am the MD for my club and we do much the same, assure it is setup correct and have others double check. We have had only one case where there was a discrepency in hand position on a classifier which was corrected with a minimum of reshoots. If I see a discrepency when shooting at another club, I try to bring it to the MD and get it resolved. Most errors I see are minor and can be corrected easily. I have seen some pretty sloppy classifier setups before, seem mostly due to laziness in setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I also, as a MD set up the classifier and I typically have 1 or 2 others and we us a 100ft surveyors tape, and we try to get the distances spot on what the plans say. We are probably within a half though. If it has several different distances than we mark our center lines, then ou different distance points on center, then our distancces off of center. We all agree on the stage setup befor we nail down the target stands and poppers. I swear though sometimes setting up a classifier can take as much or more time than a small field course, if you make sure your distances are correct. We had a classifier several years ago that was setup incorrectly and no one caught the mistake until after the match was over and we were putting up the props. we made the matchdirector aware and he informed everyone at the next match what had happened, and apologised. Pretty much everyone said no biggie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Still leaves me with a question, how close is close enough? I have searched high and low, strong with the google fu this one, but for the life of me I can't find any rules or information on how accurate it needs to be for the classifier to be legal. Just wondering if anyone here in the brain trust could help me answer this one just to satisfy curosity. Joe W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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