Production Rule

[smokshwn]

Also, i know you mentioned that their are some well articulated posts for the limit, but when I read them they have a bottom line statement that is says they want 10 because that's what they want. To me it's the USPSA version of restrictor plate racing.

If you are going to dismiss everyone elses reasoning as "that's what they want" then you also have to accept that your arguement is no more compelling than "that's what you want".

Two huge reasons have been given that are very objective without much opinion in them.

#1 You will eliminate the ability of .40 and .45 caliber guns to remain competitive when at a 3-5 round disadvantage. In doing so you will alienate many of the shooters who are already shooting production for the possible increase of those who "might".

#2 You will eliminate the built in challenge of stage breakdown that is imposed by ten round mag limits and the necessity of absolute accuracy (not only due to minor scoring but more importantly less extra rounds for misses).

Now you can either like these arguements or not, but at the end of the day they are very objective. If you have been shooting Production since its inception and enjoy the challenge of shooting minor, simply shoot Limited minor. It will give you everything you are asking for and there would be no need for extra equipment investment.

I only shoot production occasionally on a local match level but I truly enjoy the challenge the 10 round limit imposes on me from an accuracy standpoint and the need to make solid stage choices. I think there is ample evidence from the growth and participation in production that the division is working quite well and I completely understand those argue that any change should prove only to expand the division without cost. Your proposal has serious costs associated with any perceived gain, therefore why try it?

[RobMoore]

Didn't clean any of my mags either this match or the USPSA match the day before when I was only loading 10.

I didn't clean mine in the mud bog, nor did I have to clean them in the sandy desert a few weeks ago. I just unload and reload the ones that dropped, and that is usually accomplished while the shooter after me shoots, is scored, and the stage reset. I never feel "rushed" to prepare myself for the next stage.

Edited October 4, 2009 by RobMoore

[rhett45acp]

Why not just make Limited 10 the only 10 round division and open it up to the guns currently being run in Production? Production stays the same, except the 10 round rule, and maybe add a length limit to the magazines if not already there.

And what about the 8 round gang in Single Stack? Should we allow 10 rounders now???

Leave Production alone for now. Just my 2 cents.

[toddrod]

While we are at it, why not allow Major PF scoring or allow the 8 shot revolvers to be shot in Revolver division. Being sarcastic here.

Production is setup and is doing what it is intended to do. Allow almost any gun to be shot with no advantage to caliber or round count. All you have to do is look at Limited to see what would happen if you allowed full mag capacity. People shooting 45 is very rare this days because of the 4-5 less in the mags compared to a 40. There would be no other caliber in Production but 9mm. Look at how much people spend on mag tuning just to get 1 extra round in them. Production would turn into the same thing if allowed. The CZ with it's 19 round mag would be king of the hill.

Edited October 5, 2009 by toddrod

[Jim Norman]

The divisions, calibers and power factors work just fine as they are now. If I were to make any suggestion, I would say to IPSC, disallow race gear in Production.

Open works, 170 mag length, 160/165 pf

Limited works, 140 mags, 165

Standard works, Box, PF

Production, USPSA, 10 rounds (+1 in first mag), no race gear, position gun behind hip.

Production, IPSC, load to capacity, Race Holster (I'd change that)

Single Stack, flush mag, 8+1, no race gear, it works

Revo, Shoot 6, reload, it works. (Maybe a Revo Open division would be nice for the 8 and 9 round guys, bring in some from other sports)

All in all, what we have works. Limiting the round count in IPSC Prod COULD back fire in that some countries might see that as a reason to limit capacity, same goes for allowing 9mm Major, if you can have that why do you need .40 or .45? also this would be a sea change in that all the guys now shooting .40 would feel a need to convert to 9mm or .38super.

Jim

[RIIID]

" The CZ with it's 19 round mag would be king of the hill."

I think the XDm's 19 round mags and a better trigger pull would be it. Change the follower and it's 20 rounds.

Rich

Let the race begin!

[smokshwn]

" The CZ with it's 19 round mag would be king of the hill."

I think the XDm's 19 round mags and a better trigger pull would be it. Change the follower and it's 20 rounds.

Rich

Let the race begin!

Wow! 20 rounds in a minor gun......that looks like...wait a minute it'll come to me....oh yeah exactly what has been suggested over and again....Limited Minor.

[Shootingirons45]

Please...leave Production alone!!! I've been shooting in USPSA since 1981, long before all these issues arose. I've seen the rise of each and every division. I've gone along with the equipment wars in the late 80's and early 90's. While I may wish to load more than 10 rds in my Production gun I can also see the other side where legal issues prevent many from owning higher capacity magazines. I think that our leaders in the USPSA have done a great job with Production. Do I agree with everything that's been done? No. Do I think that they have our best interests at heart? Yes. Production is our fastest growing division and is a great way to introduce USPSA to the new shooters without the apperance that they "need" a open, or Limited gun to compete on a equal basis. Personally, I could care less if we were allowed to shoot to the capacity of our individual guns. 2-3 rds will neither make nor break the average shooter..LEAVE Production ALONE, please!

[JohnRodriguez]

I think that 4ish states in the nation dictation that we have to run 10rnds is stupid and should be changed. As for all the people who think that it should be left alone, i give you a challenge. Go out a try and recruit a new shooter for production division who has zero experience in USPSA, but are experienced shooters. Then tell them that they can only load up 10rnds in their new hi-cap mag and why they must do it. They'll probably tell you that it is a stupid rule and why should they carry it with 10 rnds when if it is there carry sidearm, they carry it loaded to capacity.

[smokshwn]

I think that 4ish states in the nation dictation that we have to run 10rnds is stupid and should be changed. As for all the people who think that it should be left alone, i give you a challenge. Go out a try and recruit a new shooter for production division who has zero experience in USPSA, but are experienced shooters. Then tell them that they can only load up 10rnds in their new hi-cap mag and why they must do it. They'll probably tell you that it is a stupid rule and why should they carry it with 10 rnds when if it is there carry sidearm, they carry it loaded to capacity.

You might want to rethink your challenge as it sure hasn't stopped anyone from shooting IDPA...

[jasmap]

I think that 4ish states in the nation dictation that we have to run 10rnds is stupid and should be changed. As for all the people who think that it should be left alone, i give you a challenge. Go out a try and recruit a new shooter for production division who has zero experience in USPSA, but are experienced shooters. Then tell them that they can only load up 10rnds in their new hi-cap mag and why they must do it. They'll probably tell you that it is a stupid rule and why should they carry it with 10 rnds when if it is there carry sidearm, they carry it loaded to capacity.

Because it's a rule in the sport? That's why. They can still carry fully loaded outside of USPSA.

I have tried this and have yet to hear that it's stupid.

[IC_Cyclone]

I was recruited as a new shooter in June. When it was explained that the 10 round rule helped equalize equipment in a division that allowed a wide variety of inexpensive commonly owned firearms I could appreciate that. I shoot a CZ w/ 19+1 standard capacity mags. While I like to score better than my fellow shooters (it'll happen someday) I'd like to do it on merit, not because I had 4 more rounds per mag than someone with a G35. Those poor guys are already shooting .40 and being scored minor.

Whether varying capacity would be an advantage, toss in a plate rack or some mini poppers, and for me a few more rounds than the competition can make a big difference. I'd rather not discuss the Texas Star.

I shot limited minor w/21+1 extended bases last weekend...what a blast. That's a good game, too. I'm a lot "better" when I can cut out a couple fumbling reloads per stage.

Steve

[Chuck Anderson]

I think that 4ish states in the nation dictation that we have to run 10rnds is stupid and should be changed. As for all the people who think that it should be left alone, i give you a challenge. Go out a try and recruit a new shooter for production division who has zero experience in USPSA, but are experienced shooters. Then tell them that they can only load up 10rnds in their new hi-cap mag and why they must do it. They'll probably tell you that it is a stupid rule and why should they carry it with 10 rnds when if it is there carry sidearm, they carry it loaded to capacity.

Done, it was easy. I recruit most shooters into either Production or L10, just for the fact they don't have to worry about losing to someone with a $4000.00 open gun, or a Limited gun with $200.00 22 round mags in a gun that only runs on reloads. Focusing on one part of an argument and calling it stupid is rather short sighted. The simple reason I tell people is that 10 rounds is there to level the playing field. It allows all sorts of guns to compete on an even playing field regardless of capacity or caliber. I can take almost any gun a shooter has and get them into either Production or L10 depending on what type of gun they have or what they've done to it, and they'll be able to compete and not be handicapped by equipment (just by their lack of skill). Open up the mags and you lose that. I think if there was never a mag ban Production at 10 rounds would still be a cool idea. Look at IPSC matches. There are really only a few guns that are common there. CZ, Tanfoglio, and Glock have the lions share. For USPSA look at our top 16. If memory serves there were at least 5 different manufacturers. I'm sure there are more than that when you get down a bit in the results.

[Jim Norman]

Load to max capacity: 9mm flush fit, 19-20 rounds in full size gun. 15-16 in 40 cal and 12 in .45.

USPSA Production, you can shoot the gun you already own be it 9mm, 40cal or 45 cal. Uncle Mikes Holster and mag pouches and a belt from your closet.

IPSC Production, you can forget it unless you have a 9mm high capacity, 40 and 45 need not apply. CR Speed or similar $150 holster, expensive mag pouches and a $50 belt.

USPSA Production has it right. Just like IDPA, you can load more outside the match to carry. This is a rule that keeps the playing field both level and open to far more guns. I can shoot my Glock 26 in USPSA and not be at an extreme disability, whereas in IPSC, i shouldn't bother showing up unless I just want to shoot for fun..

For the record, this is not USPSA vs IPSC, but rather an illustration of different rules in actual application and the effects of same.

[G-ManBart]

Both good points; however, they still don't address why removing the 10 round rule would negatively impact the division.

It would create an equipment race where only a couple of guns are the most "competitive" because of magazine capacity. It would also eliminate anything but 9mm guns from being competitive because of mag capacity. This would kill the broad appeal that exists currently, i.e. if you have almost any modern double action auto you can compete on a level playing ground with what you already have.

Cheap guns, cheap mags, cheap ammo, minor scoring, and stage strategy are all great aspects of production, and probably the most compelling reason to shoot the class. However, how would allowing us to load our mags to full capacity change any of this? The only explaination that I have been able to glean is that everyone likes reloading so much that they accept all the side effects like scrambling to clean and load mags, and having to carry 5 mags on a 29 round cof. After 10 years of this i'm tired of scrambling. Let us load'em up full so we can have more fun and less messing around. What's it going to hurt?

No, people like a level playing ground so they accept the side effects of loading and cleaning mags. Look at what folks do when shooting Single Stack....even more mag cleaning and loading, but it hasn't hurt the growth there.

After 10 years I'm surprised you haven't been able to buy enough mags to make it through more than one stage....buy some extras and make your matches less of a scramble. Heck, I just got my Production rig totally set up and I've got 20 mags for my M&P Pro....so I don't have to scramble so much

[Jim Norman]

Aww come on, the 10 round limit is bad because I have to clean mags between stages??????

If you want to load up to full capacity, shoot in Limited. your production gun loaded full there is just fine, if it is a 9mm, you shoot minor, but if it is a .40 you can shoot major and many can and do win shooting a Glock or an XD or other 'Production Gun' in Limited. Not possible you say? Ask Dave or Bob. I venture to say that they can beat most Limited shooters shooting major race guns with Production leagal 9mm guns with only an extended mag. THere is a division for you to shoot your production gun in loaded to capacity.

USPSA production allows as G-Man says virtually any safe-action or Double Action gun to be competitive as it now stands. Open up capacity and you have a 9mm only Division, allow Major/Minor as well and we don't have a need for Production, that would be the Limited Division. Is that the real idea here? Eliminate the fastest growing division in USPSA? Because this would do it. I take my 500 G-22, get a few extensions and a drop in trigger and viola, Limited rig, (L-10 for under a thou.)

People we have divisions, there is a place to shoot any gun you want to. Heck you want to see how good you really are, take your Revo, SS, Production rig, L-10 or Limited and shoot it in Open. Just like it used to be. Heads up. We had categories, that we pulled out of the heads up race. Match winner then high catagory, but the scores were all just like the combined scores are now.

Jim

[kevin c]

Please...leave Production alone!!! I've been shooting in USPSA since 1981, long before all these issues arose. I've seen the rise of each and every division. I've gone along with the equipment wars in the late 80's and early 90's. While I may wish to load more than 10 rds in my Production gun I can also see the other side where legal issues prevent many from owning higher capacity magazines. I think that our leaders in the USPSA have done a great job with Production. Do I agree with everything that's been done? No. Do I think that they have our best interests at heart? Yes. Production is our fastest growing division and is a great way to introduce USPSA to the new shooters without the apperance that they "need" a open, or Limited gun to compete on a equal basis. Personally, I could care less if we were allowed to shoot to the capacity of our individual guns. 2-3 rds will neither make nor break the average shooter..LEAVE Production ALONE, please!

Sums it up for me (except I am not as venerable ).

Works fine, leave it alone.

[Jman]

One Way game range 10+1.

Two Way range...slap a 199 round drum on the damn thing.

Jim

[lucky #7]

Excellent debate everyone. I've learned a lot. Like there are a lot of people shooting .40 and .45 caliber production guns that would become non-competitive overnight if the 10 round rule were eliminated. For that matter if the 10 round rule changed then the minor/major rule would likely change which would make all of the full cap 9mm guns non-competative thereby rendering my 19+1 9mm less than competitive. After weighing all the angles the 10 round rule may be for the best under the current structure.

However, maybe we can bump it up to a 12 round rule and still keep the bigger calibers competative. Just a thought since the double stack .45's typically hold 12. That would eliminate 1 mag on the belt in production division which would be awesome.

One last thought, someone said something about "production would become a 9mm only class." Many think that production already is a 9mm only class because of the minor only scoring. Why not create a Double Action Production and a Single Action Production.

DA Production would be a 9mm only class with full capicity mags and current production rules.

SA Production would swallow up.40 and .45 production guns, single stack, and L-10. At least the non Limited spec SA guns that fall into L-10. The limited spec guns of S_I design can just shoot limited. Then all of the .40 and .45 cal shooters could operate in that class with no loss of competativeness regardless if they are shooting a 1911, glock, Sig, or XD. SA Prod would have a 10 round limit.

I'm not proposing that we change, but what do you guys think about that set up?

[IL-SIG]

Excellent debate everyone. I've learned a lot. Like there are a lot of people shooting .40 and .45 caliber production guns that would become non-competitive overnight if the 10 round rule were eliminated. For that matter if the 10 round rule changed then the minor/major rule would likely change which would make all of the full cap 9mm guns non-competative thereby rendering my 19+1 9mm less than competitive. After weighing all the angles the 10 round rule may be for the best under the current structure.

However, maybe we can bump it up to a 12 round rule and still keep the bigger calibers competative. Just a thought since the double stack .45's typically hold 12. That would eliminate 1 mag on the belt in production division which would be awesome.

One last thought, someone said something about "production would become a 9mm only class." Many think that production already is a 9mm only class because of the minor only scoring. Why not create a Double Action Production and a Single Action Production.

DA Production would be a 9mm only class with full capicity mags and current production rules.

SA Production would swallow up.40 and .45 production guns, single stack, and L-10. At least the non Limited spec SA guns that fall into L-10. The limited spec guns of S_I design can just shoot limited. Then all of the .40 and .45 cal shooters could operate in that class with no loss of competativeness regardless if they are shooting a 1911, glock, Sig, or XD. SA Prod would have a 10 round limit.

I'm not proposing that we change, but what do you guys think about that set up?

Rant on-

Why don't we make it 14 rounds, or possibly 11...better yet I vote for 13, no wait 15 would be a could compromise...

I say leave well enough alone. We have divisions that anyone can shoot in. If people shooting major want to get "credit" for shooting a .40 or .45 they could shoot Lim-10 and shoot major or they could shoot Limited and load up there mags if they wish. I say leave everything alone, learn to play within the rules and become the best shooter you can in the division you choose to participate. If you don't like the rules of that division shoot in another division.

-rant off!

[lucky #7]

Why are you ranting?

[1911user]

Leave production as is. It works! Any of the tweaks listed would reduce the attractiveness of the division to some of the current shooters. As it is currently, production is a good division for common concealed carry pistols chambered in 9mm, 40, and 45. That practicality traces back to the very roots of USPSA/IPSC. The minor scoring forces an emphasis on accuracy and the 10rd mag limit forces good reloading technique which I believe to be a good thing for practical pistol usage.

The growth of the production division shows it is good and should be left alone IMHO.

[Nik Habicht]

However, maybe we can bump it up to a 12 round rule and still keep the bigger calibers competative. Just a thought since the double stack .45's typically hold 12. That would eliminate 1 mag on the belt in production division which would be awesome.

If they're full-size.....

And yes, I know of competitors shooting their only gun --- a Glock 26, or a Glock 30. 10 rounds also makes it so that someone shooting an 8 round gun (Sig 220, Sig 225, S&W 3913, S&W Chief's Special autos, Beretta 92M) can play with less of a disadvantage than bumping it to 12....

[lucky #7]

If the AWB wasn't in effect when production division was created there would be no 10 round limit. It is the reason that L-10 exists as well.

[Chuck Anderson]

If the AWB wasn't in effect when production division was created there would be no 10 round limit. It is the reason that L-10 exists as well.

So? It was and competitors bought equipment based on the rules for the last decade. What GOOD reason is there to change?