Drop turner failed to turn

[Boats]

This did not happen to me but did to a fellow gun club member in my squad at a major match. We were talking recently and he told the whole story. Saw it happen but did not hear the conversation. I have a few questions on how to best handle the situation. Course of fire was engage a popper, as it fell it should have activated a drop turner then the course of fire went on to other targets. He hit the popper and moved to but but did not fire on the drop turner. Popper never fell turner never turned. He went back and hit it twice more still no fall. Went on to finish the course of fire with the popper standing and no hit on the drop turner. The RSO dinged him good on fail to engage etc. He said "I hit that target 3 times" RSO answered "mabey we ought to crono your loads" Last stage on a hot day, he let it go & walked away.

My first thought was he should not have signed the score sheet and not debate the issue with the RSO, take it up with the match director. He kept quiet signed and moved on. This fellow shoots a SSR and had cronoed his loads, Pretty sure they made the PF . This stage pretty much ruined what was otherwise a good match.

Question is can the match officials ignore the possibility of a target malfunction by threatening you with the crono ? Is crono and steel performance linked in any way. Way I read it they are not linked. If the competitor was not selected for the Crono he should no be pulled out selectively because the RSO say's so or to defend his steel targets performance.

Would have been real simple to allow a re-shoot giving the benifit of the doubt to the competitor. In the matches defense he did not ask for a re-shoot.

Opinion ?

Boats

[Steve Koski]

Hmmm. Weird combination of events!

• Did he hit it in the center or put his last two shots up high? Soft 9mm and .38 Spl shooters need to hit poppers up high if necessary.
  
• If he chrono'd his loads and it was a hot day, he should have had all the confidence in the world that his loads made power factor. Sounds like maybe that wasn't the case.
  
• In the SO's defense, the same thing may have been going on all day, with 125-130 PF loads striking below center not taking down the popper. We don't know.
  
• I'm not aware of anything that would restrict the MD from chrono'ing loads that appear to be light, like your buddie's. In fact, I've been at sanctioned matches where "primer loads" that go pop instead of bang were specifically singled out for the chrono.
  
• I think your buddy probably did the right thing in dropping it and moving on.
  

Koski

[GmanCdp]

to me,it sounds like the shooter was not standing up for himself....so it was ok for him to take the points down on the drop turner[what 10 points??]and also take the FTN and 5 points on the steel??? .if i had been shooting all day and was the only one of the day,that the steel did not fall..then i would have at least:

1:look at the activator device,cable bind,pin stuck :etc

2:have another shooter shoot the steel with the same caliber

3:should have got the MD over to at least get involved..

4:where is the peanut gallery when you need them the most

[Boats]

Not me so I can't answer on what his thought process was. I do shoot with him and often score his Revolver in matches at our club, Never seen any light loads out of his gun. However SSR's are clearly the weak hitter of all IDPA guns. Large as the match was probably not 20 SSR shooters so even if the popper had gone down all day would not have been particulary relivent. He does cronograph his loads but don't have any information on how these printed out.

Just to put some thoughts out there. And I am no expert. Seems if the course of fire required knocking down a popper it ought to fall over with any hit from any legal gun and load, Ok Edge hits perhaps not but 3 times It should have gone over. Otherwise it's an advantage to the guys that know it has to be hit at some special place . I think I would have refused to sign the score card. If they wanted to crono my loads go ahead. If they passed and the challege to PF was used to stand down a competitor is it OK to request a re-shoot ? I suspect it is and that's the proper action to take.

Boats

[nwb01]

If he hit the popper with 3 good hits and it did not fall then he should have taken it up with the MD. His (shooters) fault for not doing so, those are some big penalties he earned by not doing so. I would be very surprised if a MD would not grant a reshoot in this case. IF some type of calibration procedure was in place these situations could be avoided!!

[ima45dv8]

I think I would have refused to sign the score card.

Does IDPA allow that (without penalty)?

[GmanCdp]

20 SSR shooters????there is only 24 signed up for the Nats..thats alot ..

qoute:I think I would have refused to sign the score card

makes no difference in IDPA,not required of the shooter or SO...

[Jim Watson]

Another thread went 'round and 'round on the matter of Popper calibration.

While it is not specifically called for in IDPA rules, the "level playing field" principle certainly calls for a rule compliant gun/load to be able to complete every CoF.

I would have invited the SO to bring on the chronograph... and the MD.

[Boats]

Actually over 2 dozen SSR's in this one, no sense in bringing up the name. I shoot a lot of silhouette, critters that don't fall are a regular thing and much discussed. However Silhouette has no power factor, shooter cut's it as close to the edge as he sees fit. And pays the price if he shoots powder puff loads. There is such a thing as "hard set" steel. Seen it often, not as consistent as you would think shooter to shooter.

IDPA on the other hand has a power factor, if the load is Ok targets ought to perform as intended. If the tale is true, and only have one side of the story, I think the RSO did the wrong thing threatening the competitor rather than simply saying taking it up with the match director. Crono or re-shoot would have been the MD's call not the RSO

Enough from me on the topic just wanted to use it as a learning experience.

Boats

Edited August 21, 2009 by Boats

[RickB]

I had a popper fail to fall at my own (MD) sanctioned match. There were three poppers standing shoulder to shoulder, the outer two acting as activators for swingers. I pied around cover, fired three shots, heard ding-ding-ding, and didn't wait around. Both activators were a-activatin', so still no reason to think anything was wrong. When we went to score, the middle popper was standing, with an obvious edge hit. I appealed to my Area Coordinator, who happened to be standing right there, for a "calibration!". He reminded me that there is no calibration procedure in IDPA. I said, "I hit it with a .45 that's going to make major (everyone was chrono'd), so it ought to go down." Even if it wouldn't help me any, this was the "staff match", so if there was a problem with the steel, this was the time to find out. He shot it with a 9mm, about six inches above the hinge, and it didn't move. He shot it again, about three inches below the calibration zone, and it wobbled and fell. If it had been the next day, in the middle of the match, I probably would have wanted anyone in my position to get the same call, even if it's not spelled-out in the rule book.

Edited August 21, 2009 by RickB

[granderojo]

Did any of the other 20+ SSR shooters have any problems knocking the steel down? In my experience, if you don't hand load for SSR, there's very few Factory loads that make PF (most have to be at least +P or +P+ to make it). If any of the other SSR shoters had the same problem and the hits were good ones, then they should have looked at the sensitivity setting on the popper. If he chronos his loads, how much above the 125 PF are his?

Just a couple of things to think about and only my 2ctsw.

Edited August 21, 2009 by granderojo

[Jim Watson]

If he chronos his loads, how much above the 125 PF are his?

But they don't have to be ANY above f 125. What other people shoot does not matter.

Actually, they only have to be f 125 out of a 4" barrel. If he is shooting a shorter barrel there is no requirement for performance out of his own gun. Steel must be set light so anybody with a legitimate rig can complete the CoF.

[granderojo]

Jim,

I'm aware that his PF doesn't have to be more than 125. The reason for asking if the loads were over 125 and if there were others in his class having trouble making it go down was because if they were, then the target was set too hard, given of course they were good hits.

If he chronos his loads, how much above the 125 PF are his?

But they don't have to be ANY above f 125. What other people shoot does not matter.

Actually, they only have to be f 125 out of a 4" barrel. If he is shooting a shorter barrel there is no requirement for performance out of his own gun. Steel must be set light so anybody with a legitimate rig can complete the CoF.

[Ben Stoeger]

Question is can the match officials ignore the possibility of a target malfunction by threatening you with the crono ? Is crono and steel performance linked in any way. Way I read it they are not linked. If the competitor was not selected for the Crono he should no be pulled out selectively because the RSO say's so or to defend his steel targets performance.

I don’t see how anyone could ignore the possibility of a target malfunction in the circumstance you describe.

I don’t see how the SO could have just left the stage stand as is. If he is 100% certain that his popper is working properly, than he would have reason to think that the loads didn’t make PF. If he thought the loads did make PF, than he would have had a problem with his popper.

Any way you slice it, something was desperately wrong, and in my opinion the SO is compelled to find out what the deal is.

[Boats]

I suspect the whole situation was handled like it was because the fail to turn was on the 4th Day and last of 16 stages. Everybody shooter RSO and all wanted to finish up get out of the heat and look at there posted scores. Had the shooter taken it to the match director and RSO held to his "Crono" threat whole thing would have taken another hour. Holding up 300 plus competitors. As far as did other shooters have the same problem on the same Drop turner ? Only the RSO would know that we were shooting other stages and had no way to tell.

While only in IDPA a couple of years I have been shooting organized competition for over 40 years. Had very few problems with the officials, In almost every case they are doing there best in a difficult job. You do have to speak up if something is not fair. My buddy's error was not speaking up.

Boats

[johes]

In my opinion, steel shouldn't be used to gauge power factor. That's what a chrono is for. Set the steel to fall for any good hit, period. He should have gotten a reshoot.

[CZinVA]

I would have taken the SO up on the offer to chrono my loads and once PF was proven, demanded my re-shoot.

Why your buddy didn’t do that is curious at the least. With all due respect, is it possible that he was worried he wouldn’t make PF, resulting in a DQ?

A bad stage is still better than a DQ.

Edited August 31, 2009 by CZinVA

[Chris Christian]

If the popper failed to fall after three hits with 125 PF ammo... and that failure to fall caused a second target on the stage to not activate and not give the shooter a shot at it... then you have a Range Equipment Malfunction.... stop... paste... re-set. The equipment needs to be looked at/adjusted and the shooter gets a reshoot... and it doesn't make a darned bit of difference how late in a hot day it occurred. I've seen a bunch of home made Rube Goldberg contraptions at matches, and they don't always work the same for every shooter.... but they should... and it's the SOs job to make sure that every shooter gets the same look. Bad call on this SOs part... and the shooter should have pressed it and stood up for his rights under the rules.

Chris Christian A23489 SO

[PPC Eljay]

Late on last day is when I have seen things like poppers and such be the most problematic. They are full of dirt and fragments, they have pounded themself loose or into the ground changing the way the were "calabrated" on the first day (300ish shooters ago), they are not freshly painted so you can see low or edge hits. Check it out, dust it with some fresh paint, bust the guy's balls about bunny fart loads, and give him a re-shoot.

[1973]

I think the shooter is supposed to finish the stage and then immediately request a calibration test shot from a designated pistol and if it still does not fall he may reshoot. If it falls then he is SOL.