Rob D Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 This isn't aimed at anyone or any particular stage, but I had a question about the legality of a stage that involves random chance. For instance, labeling all the targets on a stage with clubs/diamonds/hearts/spades. At the buzzer, the shooter draws a card, and the targets that match that cards suit become no shoots. Is this kind of thing within the rules? If so, is it legal at level 3 matches? I can see this kind of stage being appropriate if it were set up so that no matter what card you draw, you have to shoot the same number of targets from the same positions at the same distances, but otherwise, the stage changes depending on luck. For instances, if you draw hearts you can skip a position or a port that you have to shoot from if you draw any other card. I don't like the idea of a dice roll or card draw affecting the results. Is this legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 In a word, NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoupirate Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 This isn't aimed at anyone or any particular stage, but I had a question about the legality of a stage that involves random chance. For instance, labeling all the targets on a stage with clubs/diamonds/hearts/spades. At the buzzer, the shooter draws a card, and the targets that match that cards suit become no shoots. Is this kind of thing within the rules? If so, is it legal at level 3 matches?I can see this kind of stage being appropriate if it were set up so that no matter what card you draw, you have to shoot the same number of targets from the same positions at the same distances, but otherwise, the stage changes depending on luck. For instances, if you draw hearts you can skip a position or a port that you have to shoot from if you draw any other card. I don't like the idea of a dice roll or card draw affecting the results. Is this legal? Only under the conditions you described. Shooters have to face an equal challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob D Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 Cool, thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Ummm, I think the rule book has descrptions of legal "no shoot" targets. If your targets are clearly marked with a large "suit" symbol on there it falls within the rules as *I* read them, which ain't always right. And since you mentioned equality, they might need to be equal in number, difficulty, and distance, which could make for a tough stage to design, but it's certainly doable. 4.1.3 No-shoots must be clearly marked or be of a single color different from scoring targets. Metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized paper targets may be used. Metal no-shoots do not have a non scoring border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 A stage that will have shooters shooting different targets will not be legal. I've shot some like this though and they are always fun, makes you think on the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Boz, for education purposes, can you show me where to look in the rule book for info stating this would not be legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDB Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 The way I read it you could, even though I wouldn't like it!! 2.3 Modifications to Course Construction more to the point 2.3.1, 2.3.3 and 2.3.3.1 I imagine it would be tough to design it to comply with 2.3.3.4 (competitive equity) though and I wouldn't want to deal with all the headaches and constantly be called back to the stage to explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I guess I am lost on how the sections of 2.3 apply to the original question. To me this is clearly a violation of 1.1.5, Freestyle, and would therefore be illegal. The random feature of the course dictates how it is to be shot, and potentially changes from shooter to shooter. This takes the shooters freestyle approach out of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 As someone that designs many of these types of stages, I'm of the opinion that so long as every competitor is presented with an equal challenge, it's good to go. I ensure this though by having the same number of each target and the same number of each target in a given array. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances. It's still "freestyle", the location and marking of the "no shoot" targets changes per the card drawn by the shooter as long as the targets created the same equitable challenge for everyone. I haven't found anything in the rules to support it being illegal, and it's just the kind of thing you have to consider to be "thinking outside the box", which is kind of what USPSA promotes. It would be a real PITA to pull off the equitable challenge though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 there is no way for a COF like that to be equal, the targets will have to be in different places, different heights, different angles, all those differences dont add up to equal, that being said I cant find it specifically spelled out that the stages have to be presented equally. 2.3 only addresses changes to a COF, Now with that being said, mind fart stages arnt shooting challenges and dont belong in our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherwyn Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Actually I think it would be beyond the box. I don't see any possible way that all the target distances and shoot angles could be kept equal. Equitable challenge is also why target stands and sticks are marked - to make sure every shooter has exactly the same challenge. Sherwyn It's still "freestyle", the location and marking of the "no shoot" targets changes per the card drawn by the shooter as long as the targets created the same equitable challenge for everyone. I haven't found anything in the rules to support it being illegal, and it's just the kind of thing you have to consider to be "thinking outside the box", which is kind of what USPSA promotes. It would be a real PITA to pull off the equitable challenge though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WDB Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 2.3 only addresses changes to a COF, Now with that being said, mind fart stages arnt shooting challenges and dont belong in our sport. Exactly, and by drawing which targets are no shoots you are essentially changing the physical locations of such targets. But I agree, I wouldn't be happy shooting that type of stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 There are 4 targets in an array, all level, at equal distance and touching. Each target has the entire A zone marked with a suit. You shoot the three that you did not draw. How is that not equitable to everyone? 10 arrays with 3 scoring targets and 1 no shoot per array wouldn't be too difficult to pull off. I kinda like the idea and would have fun shooting it. Now with that being said, mind fart stages arnt shooting challenges and dont belong in our sport. Then you Sir have never shot at EAGC. Ronnie Shores is a master (read genius) at memory stages and inducing "mind farts". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 There are 4 targets in an array, all level, at equal distance and touching. Each target has the entire A zone marked with a suit. You shoot the three that you did not draw. How is that not equitable to everyone? 10 arrays with 3 scoring targets and 1 no shoot per array wouldn't be too difficult to pull off. I kinda like the idea and would have fun shooting it. I have shot a stage exactly like this. It was years ago but I remember it well because it was a lot of fun. It was four arrays 24 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 As someone that designs many of these types of stages, I'm of the opinion that so long as every competitor is presented with an equal challenge, it's good to go. I ensure this though by having the same number of each target and the same number of each target in a given array. Rich Same number of targets per array does NOT equate to an equal challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 There are 4 targets in an array, all level, at equal distance and touching. Each target has the entire A zone marked with a suit. You shoot the three that you did not draw. How is that not equitable to everyone? 10 arrays with 3 scoring targets and 1 no shoot per array wouldn't be too difficult to pull off. I kinda like the idea and would have fun shooting it. I have shot a stage exactly like this. It was years ago but I remember it well because it was a lot of fun. It was four arrays 24 rounds. Lots of things are fun. Doesn't mean it is a fair and equal shooting challenge...which is what we do when building USPSA stages. Sounds like you two failed Sesame Street. One of these things is not like the other one (or..was that the Electric Company? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 So... What is unfair or unequal about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sci Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 So...What is unfair or unequal about it? If the no shoot you draw is in the center of the array is that the same as one on the end? is one on the left the same as one on the right? Could be a bit of a change in the transitions Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 So...What is unfair or unequal about it? Targets in an array, all the exact same distance and height. If someone gets a no-shoot in the middle and somebody else gets their no-shoot on one end the transition is different. I like my stages to be about the shooting. I don't like stages that screw with the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Imagine if the texas star had a different suit painted on the plates. In each array every target has a suit painted over the A zone area. Yeah transitions might change depending upon what suit you picked, but they would be that way for everyone with 4 different arrays. Everyone would have the same challenge no matter what suit you picked. John, I think we should set this one up at EAGC sometime and shoot it for a "side stage" now that there is a texas star there. I don't see why Ronnie or Alan would oppose and it would be great fun, especially on the star!!! By doing that, we could verify rather or not the stage provides equitable challenge to each shooter. Those that want the stages to be about the shooting don't think about the "freestyle" concept and figuring out the solution to the shooting challenge presented to the shooter. I'm glad all our stages aren't standards drills where it's "all about the shooting". I like being challenged mentally as part of the game. As long as it's not a physical challenge, I see it in good fun. That IS why we shoot right? After all, it IS a game we are playing right? Excuse the poor MS Paint artwork here... but I think it would work with some careful planning and layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 There's a way to set that up that maintains equity --- but it requires reverting to old school principles of shooting arrays from boxes on the ground. If one wanted to do this at a level 1 match, in order to maintain competitive equity: Four arrays of four targets in front of four boxes. All targets would need to be the same height. All arrays would need to be equidistant directly in front of (centered on) their respective shoot boxes. Targets in the four arrays would need to be arranged from left to right in the following order: 1 2 3 4; 2 3 4 1; 3 4 1 2 ; 4 1 2 3, where 1,2,3, and 4 represent colors or suits of cards. This ensures that irrespective of which number (color, card) one draws for the no-shoot, transitions will be equivalent, i.e. each shooter will engage one array of each set-up at an identical distance. The start position would need to be in a fifth location, ideally requiring the same amount of movement to enter the first box that would be required to enter each subsequent box... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 You can't paint the scoring surface of shootable portions of an target. 4.1.2.1 The scoring area of scoring paper targets must be of a typical cardboard color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 You can't paint the scoring surface of shootable portions of an target.4.1.2.1 The scoring area of scoring paper targets must be of a typical cardboard color. Well draw it on there then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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