Considering points series matches for a local club shoot.

[burningsquirrels]

Hello,

Our local club shoots every Wednesday, and we're thinking about holding a points series to promote participation and competition.

Originally I thought of doing a "Production Cup" in which we all shoot our production guns for either 6 or 8 pre-scheduled matches, and then tally up the points at the end. Our main problem is, I'm guessing we have a dozen production shooters. Not sure if more would join just for this series. I'm trying to come up with either a handicap for lower classed shooters. Otherwise, our GM will just run away with the cup. I'm trying to make it fair for everyone. The other option other than a handicap would be to have a trophy for each class, but what if there's only 1 or 2 in a class? I think we have one GM, one A, two B's, the rest Cs and Ds. Another final option was to use some kind of scoring matrix. For example, if a GM places in a match, he could get 3 pts for 1st, 2 pts for 2nd, 1 pt for 3rd... Whereas a M could get 4-3-2, A gets 5-4-3, B gets 6-5-4, etc.

Do you guys have any suggestions?

Thanks!

[Fireant]

I can tell you what we do, but it does help the top guys out more than the others. Lets say you have 12 shooters. The first place person gets 5 points for the win and then 1 point for each person they beat at the match. So the winner gets 16 points. The second place gets 1 point for everyone they beat, so second place gets 10 points. Keep going down the line like that until the person that has 0 points. We run this for the year and count the best 7 matches out of a possible 12 matches( or 1 more than half if you have to cancel some matches. Don't count special classifiers either). While the top masters beat me like a dog most of the time, I can catch up to them if they trash a stage or can't make it to the match. It seems to be the best way I've seen to even things out. We only count the people in that division, not combined scores.

[Rocket35]

I have participated in many point series matches at the club level and have enjoyed them all. I like the long term competition it provides and rewards consistancy.

[BritinUSA]

One option; Take their final percentage for the match and subtract their current classifier percentage, that's their score. Add up all those numbers and the one with the highest score wins.

So if you have a GM with a current classification percentage of 98% then you subtract 98% from his match score, say 98.5% and get gets .5, a B class shooter who shoots 5% over his current percentage would get a 5 score. If you shoot under your classification then your final score will go down for that match.

[ChuckS]

FWIW: SWPL has run a point series since 1963

http://www.gopherflats.org/swpl/swp_past.htm

There is no handicap. The best shooter in the division wins. Here is their FAQ: http://www.gopherflats.org/swpl/Points%20Race%20FAQ.htm

Later,

Chuck

[burningsquirrels]

Thanks for the input guys.

If we went with top shooter, the same one person will win every time, which is what makes the handicap thing difficult.

BritinUSA, I like that idea!

I'll get back to you guys. I'm going to play with some match scores and see if I can find a middle ground.

[burningsquirrels]

Here's something I thought of, let me knwo what you guys think:

GM - +0%

M - +5%

A - +15%

B - +25%

C - +40%

D - +60%

handicap is applied to total match points.

place/points

1st - 5

2nd - 4

3rd - 3

4th - 2

5th - 1

I tried it on some of our match results, and it seems to balance out our GM with the lower B/C shooters.

[burningsquirrels]

Another idea: rank people by the place they finish.. they get 8-6-4-2-1 points depending on place. master gets 1 bonus point, a gets 2, b gets 3, c gets 4, d gets 5.....

[VegasOPM]

I was considering this for next season. I want to provide decent prizes for the most consistent attendees and performers, regardless of class- so I really like the "bonus point" system.

[burningsquirrels]

so here's an update...

after some talking.... basically there's two gaps that need to be leveled out. one gap is the skill gap, the other is the equipment gap.

one option is to poll the shooters for their openness to making it all limited/minor division rules. this allows everyone to basically shoot what they got, short of an open gun. pro guys can load up their mags, limited guys step down to minor PF. open guys, well, they rpobably already own pro/lim guns anyways. that's option #1. if the pol shows that folks are in the majority of this, cool. but chances are they may not, and we'd need to find an equipment gap.

the other option... well, i was talking to a buddy and we came up with a single handicap that does both skill and equipment - since we only get about 20ish shooters every wed. night... we might have a couple sketchy ways of going about it.

for example, i'm 58.84% as an L10-C shooter. let's pull up my friend, with an 83.64% as an Open-A shooter. how do we cover that gap of skill and equipment?

do you guys have any idea? i'm punching numbers at the moment.

one thought was to use national classifiers to weight the scores.... but my objection was that national classifier %s are per division, not per combined divisions. for example, an HF of 5.0 on CM-six chickens yields 60% for open, 83 for production, and 90 for revolver. am i seeing this in the wrong light?

as an example, let's say max match points possible is 280. for open-A shooter of 84%, the max match points for him is (280*.84) 235.2 - so if he gets a match point score of 236.2, he gets a point. for me, my max match score is 162.4, so if i end the match with 172.4, i get 10 points, and so forth. question is, would this work?

Edited November 1, 2009 by burningsquirrels

[burningsquirrels]

here's one totally off the wall.

basically:

take your best classification letter.

take your equipment class.

let's say all eight of these shooters are in the cup series and happened to finish in the top eight.

10-7-09

1 Gregory B Limited Major N N N N 220.0767 100.00%

2 Peter A Open Major N N N N 209.0860 95.01%

3 Gerard C Limited 10 Major N N N N 197.3086 89.65%

4 Alan C Limited Major N N N N 189.0524 85.90%

5 Kevin B Production Minor N N N N 185.9996 84.52%

6 Marvin D Production Minor N N N N 147.4114 66.98%

7 Neil B Production Minor N N N N 141.6385 64.36%

8 Erik D Production Minor N N N N 140.1257 63.67%

place points:

1st - 10

2nd - 9

3rd - 8

4th - 7

5th - 6

and so on to 10th place

grudge points: look at the people you beat. gain bonus point for every person you beat that is a class higher than you, and a point if s/he is shooting a nicer gun than you. nicest gun to lowest gun: open, lim, lim-10/SS, pro, revo

that's it, and that's all.

for this 10/7 match, the following place points are awarded:

greg - 10 ...plus bonuses: +2 (beating peter, higher class, nicer gun)

peter - 9 ... no bonuses

gerard - 8 ...+1 (beating alan, nicer gun) +1 (beating kevin, higher class) +1 (beating neil, higher class)

alan - 7 ...+1 (beating kevin, higher class) +1 (beating neil, higher class)

kevin - 6 ... no bonuses

marvin - 5 ... +1 (beating neil, higher class)

neil - 4 ... no bonuses

erik - 3... no bonuses

points race after the night:

greg - 12

gerard - 11

peter - 9

alan - 9

kevin - 6

marvin - 6

neil - 4

erik - 3

what do you think? it rewards people for beating those with higher classes and/or nicer guns.... points may be adjusted around, but the concept is pretty easy to score. we can do it where if i beat peter i get 2 points (since peter is two classes up) and 2 points (because lim is nicer than lim-10, and open is nicer than lim). the effectiveness of bonus points can be brought down by awarding more points for place finishes, i.e. 15 points for 1st, 13 for second, 11 for third, and so on... but it might be another avenue to explore than all the classifier crud, lmao.

another thought of mine. hell, eff it all. reward people who beat those with higher class and nicer guns, and those with nice guns and higher classes will claw to stay on top. i think this would be way simpler, and just call it the brawler or grudge cup, lmao.

of course, the above leaves some deficiencies. it doesn't reward shooters that shot well who are on the bottom, unless we award place points based upon how many cup shooters show up, or award place points by giving one point per cup shooter beaten. then again, it kills someone to miss one night.... could toss out one highest scoring night and one lowest scoring night, then average points per night as the final score.... hmm..... needs more thought.

Edited November 1, 2009 by burningsquirrels

[Charles Bond]

There are any number of ways to do this but I believe the first thing you might want to do is define your goal. If your goal is to increase particiaption at your matches, you might just want to give everyone who participates a ticket and give them an additional ticket for everyone who is new they bring with them and then draw for a nice prize at a defined date. You could also say that to have your tickets even entered into the drawing you have to attend ___% of the matches.

If your goal is to have a winner that cuts across classes, a way to do that is to base points on how close they come to shooting their class without going over. The problem with this is what to do with a GM who wins the match and his/her score is always 100%. Your handicapp system is likely the best bet and you will find that you might need to adjust it as you go or run it a while and then start a new series and adjust it.

[bofe954]

I guess with 12 guys I can see a little handicap, but why punish the good guys for being good? I'm a C and I know in most matches somebody is going to beat me. They also have put a lot more time, effort and money into the sport than me. Maybe they deserve it?

How about a prize at the end for "most improved" or something. Seems like that is what you would be rewarding anyway.

[Ben Stoeger]

I don’t understand the need to “level out” the skill difference between shooters. Instituting some sort of mathematical gimmick to give anyone a chance to “win” seems strange to me.

If someone “wins” because of an arbitrary mathematical formula designed to randomize the chances of “winning” would it not make equal sense to have a randomized drawing to select a “winner”?

You wouldn’t even need to hold the match.. You could save on setup time.

[badchad]

If we went with top shooter, the same one person will win every time...

Well, you wouldn't want that now would you?

I've been trying to come up with a good term that describes this. Right now I'm using "performancism." Which I define as rules or award systems that discriminate against those who win, place high, or demonstrate particularly good performance, etc.

[Sherwyn]

Doesn't really look to me like you want a points series.

Sense you don't want to reward performance, let me suggest a better point series.

Everybody that finishes a match (no DQ) gets 2 points, help setup 1 point, help tear down 1 point, design a stage 1 point, bring a new shooter 2 points. Match score will reward the skills and you can reward the guys that keep your club running.

Just my .02

Sherwyn

[Bergie]

This is an interesting subject.

In triathlons the men and women compete on a "level" playing field. There is one "winner"

The catch is that they give the women a 10 minute advantage. Yes, I said 10 minutes.

Even with 10 minutes, most of them can't "win". In the triathlon that I went to watch, a woman did "win". She beat the first man by about 2 seconds.

In my opinion she did not win at all. She got a 10 minute advantage because of a euphorian handicap system. If she had no time advantage she would have been beat by 9:58.

In our game there is already a classification system that seperates the GM, M, A, B, C, D shooters. This is for a reason. The better shooters are better because they worked harder at it and spent more time and money. They should win.

If I was a B shooter and won a Points series because of a handicap system, I wouldn't feel like I won at all. I didn't win anything.

I would rather win B class and maybe beat a couple of A shooters doing it, but to win a points series because of a handicap means nothing.

Just my $.02

Good Luck

[ima45dv8]

This is an interesting subject.

In triathlons the men and women compete on a "level" playing field. There is one "winner"

The catch is that they give the women a 10 minute advantage. Yes, I said 10 minutes.

Even with 10 minutes, most of them can't "win". In the triathlon that I went to watch, a woman did "win". She beat the first man by about 2 seconds.

In my opinion she did not win at all. She got a 10 minute advantage because of a euphorian handicap system. If she had no time advantage she would have been beat by 9:58.

In our game there is already a classification system that seperates the GM, M, A, B, C, D shooters. This is for a reason. The better shooters are better because they worked harder at it and spent more time and money. They should win.

If I was a B shooter and won a Points series because of a handicap system, I wouldn't feel like I won at all. I didn't win anything.

I would rather win B class and maybe beat a couple of A shooters doing it, but to win a points series because of a handicap means nothing.

Just my $.02

Good Luck

Having had you kick my butt at a couple of matches, without a handicap system, I concur.

[Bergie]

[Charles Bond]

Doesn't really look to me like you want a points series.

Sense you don't want to reward performance, let me suggest a better point series.

Everybody that finishes a match (no DQ) gets 2 points, help setup 1 point, help tear down 1 point, design a stage 1 point, bring a new shooter 2 points. Match score will reward the skills and you can reward the guys that keep your club running.

Just my .02

Sherwyn

Excellent observations Sherwyn. There are those who look for what they can do for USPSA an those who take only what USPSA can give them.

I am amazed that any number of posts have revolved around the idea that any ponts series should be just a top down finish because that is the only way it "should" be. To that I would say that obviously the shooter who started the post knows his shooters better than any of us and he is trying to do something to promote his club. In lieu of aid and suggestions that would help him achieve that goal, what he has for the most part received here amounts to criticisim for trying to do anything at all. This forum is better than that.

[joecichlid]

Very interesting ideas floating around the brain trust here. If all goes well we might be trying a points series next year at my local club.

Joe W.